Dilemma for theists!

[C Rod]

No CRod..I "do this" because to do otherwise would be unthinkable, I could not live with myself. I could not send another to the gallows for something that I had done. Could you?

Scapegoating is scapegoating, you want to give it a pretty name (I'm guessing because scapegotaing sounds fucking terrible to you), but it is what it is. I refuse this "gift". The giver is a peice of shit for offering it, and he can shove it up his ass. Or, maybe, no such "gift" was offered? You keep attempting to make this an issue of some sort of failing on my part. Passing the buck,..so, scapegoating on the issue of scapegoating...bravo.

We won't see eye to eye on this CRod, there's no point in attempting to find common ground. It's non-negotiable to me. You don't accept "gifts" that are beneath you, period. I'm capable of handling the messes I create or I am not, they are no one else's responsibility. No excuses you make will change this, no redefinition is possible. Find more fertile ground.

I couldn't knowingly send someone to the gallows for me. But if it was the only way to save any life, and the one who is being scapegoated knows that he can do this and wants to do this, then whats the problem with accepting it after it already happens. Also, this sacrifice, scapegoat is redeemed and comes back to life so what is the problem?(somehow there is a problem, proof).
"The giver is a piece of shit" wow remind me never to give you anything.
"Maybe no such gift is offered" Sounds like your afraid to be deceived.
Your pride is your sin, and its not rational or reasonable, its petty and pathetic.

[The Grand Nudger]

Or perhaps my "pride" is my virtue, you've failed the test and I've passed with flying colors. Perhaps any deity worth its salt would rather surround itself with people like myself. Who's to say?

-You couldn't do it, but the rest of your post is dedicated to exactly how you could do it? Forgive me if I remain unconvinced, scapegoater. What has "already happened" is a non issue to the lord of time, ass. There is no such thing to such creature.
-"The only way", well, forgive me for wondering why an omnipotent busybody found this to be the "only way".
-Yep, don't give me anything that would insult my dignity, I'll call you piece of shit and refuse the gift..and?
-Deceived by what, again? You and your claims? You overestimate your ability.
-I'd call scapegoating petty and pathetic, and?

Here's the rub, I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't be caught dead defending this bullshit in any arena other than your favorite fairy tale. You can't even muster up the balls to be honest with yourself. "Petty and pathetic", how's about you go fuck yourself? Your idea of morality is a reward driven piece of shit with a built in "get out of jail free" card, and I refuse to give it any respect (mostly because it deserves none, but partly because I dislike you). Some godamned christian you turned out to be, judging others with the waive of a hand. Did I mention that you could go fuck yourself? If not, go fuck yourself.

[C Rod]

Or perhaps my "pride" is my virtue, you've failed the test and I've passed with flying colors. Perhaps any deity worth its salt would rather surround itself with people like myself. Who's to say?

-You couldn't do it, but the rest of your post is dedicated to exactly how you could do it? Forgive me if I remain unconvinced, scapegoater. What has "already happened" is a non issue to the lord of time, ass. There is no such thing to such creature.
-"The only way", well, forgive me for wondering why an omnipotent busybody found this to be the "only way".
-Yep, don't give me anything that would insult my dignity, I'll call you piece of shit and refuse the gift..and?
-Deceived by what, again? You and your claims? You overestimate your ability.
-I'd call scapegoating petty and pathetic, and?

Here's the rub, I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't be caught dead defending this bullshit in any arena other than your favorite fairy tale. You can't even muster up the balls to be honest with yourself. "Petty and pathetic", how's about you go fuck yourself? Your idea of morality is a reward driven piece of shit with a built in "get out of jail free" card, and I refuse to give it any respect (mostly because it deserves none, but partly because I dislike you). Some godamned christian you turned out to be, judging others with the waive of a hand. Did I mention that you could go fuck yourself? If not, go fuck yourself.

I answered your proposed question and then showed you the example in the bible, they are different. Your comparison in which you assumed a premise you could easily confront and thwart is not the same as described for the story of Jesus.

Yet you don't know who i am and if i showed up and offered a gift, nicely wrapped and thoughtful, i think you would accept it(be it social convention and, or it was a really good gift or you felt you deserve it in some way) but in the next few days, i wonder if you'll get a gift, could it be me? Haha Your just angry at me because well, there's many reasons, but where there is anger, there is pain.

Ohh, you cant be deceived, it seems were out for the vulgar quest for truth or could it just be that intelligence of yours, its uncanny, a passive almost meek life, that accepts nothing but believes its rational for doing so is perfect and thus any god or any dimension can never overcome its reasons and logic to soothe its query of what if? Satisfied to the fullest extent with all that logic, what to do with my time, ohh, what to do with the time.

Pass judgement? I made an observation. Your reason for not accepting the gift was because your were too good or that it was beneath you. Thus your pride is pathetic or at least the reason for your pride.

Sounds like your cool with all those go fuck yourselfs, but try to be clever. I think you should go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself. But way to be childish, it must be all that pain. Express it and vent all you want.

[The Grand Nudger]

Strange, the narrative still seems like scapegoating to me, so I suppose you failed.

That's right, if you showed up and said "Here, take this, because you're not good enough to aqcuire it yourself, and furthermore you need this gift from me because I'm the only person who can give it"..yes, I'd call you an ass and refuse the "gift" It isn't a gift at all, just an excuse to be condescending. Which is precisely how you've decided to leverage the very concept of this "gift" as well. It only gets worse when "this" is blood magic. No thanks on two counts.

So......go fuck yourself. This isn't me venting any sort of pain, this is me simply reminding you that you're an ass.....for being an ass (both for attempting to mount a defense of scapegoating, and for waffling on about some pain that exists only in your fantasies of me-and honestly, I'm not sure which of those two is more disturbing-).

You seemed to have completely lost your shit midway on that post btw amigo, was that supposed to be coherent?

Now, would you like to try again, do a better job? Explain to me why this narrative doesn't qualify as scapegoating, or maybe make a stronger case for scaepgoating? Or would you rather to continue babbling about my "sins", or whatever else you've imagined about me that you don't like, preacher?

[C Rod]

Strange, the narrative still seems like scapegoating to me, so I suppose you failed.

That's right, if you showed up and said "Here, take this, because you're not good enough to aqcuire it yourself, and furthermore you need this gift from me because I'm the only person who can give it"..yes, I'd call you an ass and refuse the "gift" It isn't a gift at all, just an excuse to be condescending. Which is precisely how you've decided to leverage the very concept of this "gift" as well. It only gets worse when "this" is blood magic. No thanks on two counts.

So......go fuck yourself. This isn't me venting any sort of pain, this is me simply reminding you that you're an ass.....for being an ass (both for attempting to mount a defense of scapegoating, and for waffling on about some pain that exists only in your fantasies of me-and honestly, I'm not sure which of those two is more disturbing-).

(You seemed to have completely lost your shit midway on that post btw amigo, was that supposed to be coherent?)

And you would refuse it. You need it and hes the only one that is giving it. What do you do after if its proven? You going to starting kicking and screaming or maybe you'll say its not fair. You got your pride right.
Where there is anger there is pain.
It is scapegoating but a more apt recognition would be sacrifice, willing, loving sacrifice.

[Tempus]

What do we need Jesus for anyway?

[The Grand Nudger]

And you would refuse it. You need it and hes the only one that is giving it. What do you do after if its proven? You going to starting kicking and screaming or maybe you'll say its not fair. You got your pride right.
Where there is anger there is pain.
It is scapegoating but a more apt recognition would be sacrifice, willing, loving sacrifice.

Start there then, prove it. lol. If you could, I would simply remind you that it is still scapegoating, and that this puts the nail in the coffin for your deity. It isn't worthy of my respect, let alone my worship. I don't bend the knee to scapegoaters (human or otherwise). If this god of yours wanted to be some sort of standard for morality and goodness then it should have acted in a manner that was at least more more, more good, than myself. What sort of deity is incapable of forming a better morality than that of a "fallen" creation? Are you arguing for a twisted god or an incompetent one?

In this case, where there is anger there's an ass spouting bullshit. Go fuck yourself.

A masochist's gift does not appeal to me, as I am not a sadist. If there was love involved, then perhaps there should have been consideration given to the fact that I would find this abhorrent, or maybe this "gift" should not be forced upon me by consequence? This whole "gift" business makes your god seem awfully shortsighted and sick. But hell, you're a scapegoater, so let's have at it. Where else do you think we could employ this scapegoating business. There's a willing, loving, mother for every murderer executed. What other personal problems do you figure we could shove onto a proxy and then wash away by "willing, loving sacrifice"? The economy is in the shitter and we have a ton of immigrants in this country, how's about we blame that on the Mexicans..and then I bet it'll go away? The whole concept is idiotic at best, and completely evil at worst (your sin washing bit falls on the latter end of that spectrum). You keep asserting something about willing sacrifice, and love, but it's entirely meaningless, as the only part of this equation that actually exists is you. You aren't accepting a gift, you're trying to shirk responsibility for whatever facet of yourself you find unappealing. Stowing all of your perceived faults away in the corpse of a dead man and saying "Oh, but he wanted it". How very convenient for you. You haven't been able to explain exactly how this blood magic is supposed to work in the first place, but that's irrelevant to the purpose of the idea, which is nothing more than evasion.

Just what is it that you've done that you need to push onto your favorite proxy?

[Ace Otana]

What do you do after if its proven?

I would love to see that. For a least one person to demonstrate beyond doubt that a god exists. I would love to see that!

Good luck.

[Angrboda]

[C Rod]

Its seems were stuck on the scapegoat/sacrifice bit. The idea that if its a scapegoat then nothing is relied on the one in which the scapegoat is for. Thus the one being scapegoated doesn't care for anything else but said action. Jesus constantly said that at the end we would be judged for actions. He told of what actions we should adhere to( though many Christians don't follow these principles, it doesn't mean Jesus didn't state them). His sacrifice, not scapegoating, is a necessary action to bring about a revelation or change in us, if that's how we see it. You live your life the best way and most morally right way you can but i doubt you follow the expectations of Jesus' principles.

Now as for blood, I ask what science says about blood, what have we as the ones with the blood concluded about the blood?

I have done everything, sinned in thought and action. I cant change that or continually promise to stop doing that. I would be a smug liar. But this sacrifice, this love, perpetuates through my reason to exercise the fact that its not over because i can't do it but that its possible because he did. A life devoted to him and reflection of him because i believe in his love. Now do you find Jesus principles wrong? Give all to the poor, turn the cheek, forgive, and love, love everything. Which is not moral?

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What do we need Jesus for anyway?

His actions change our actions.
His love shapes your life or his forgiveness and mercy soothes your curiosity.