If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?

[catfish]

This proves the Bible is not reliable, for the scribes writing it down have tampered with the original words.

So, you would use an unreliable source as proof???

[Mystical]

[Vader has just choked Padmé into unconsciousness]
Darth Vader : You've turned her against me!
Obi-Wan Kenobi : You have done that yourself!
Vader : YOU WILL NOT TAKE HER FROM ME!
Obi-Wan : Your anger and your lust for power have already done that. You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind, until now...until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Vader : Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan! I see through the lies of the Jedi! I do not fear the Dark Side as you do! I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!
Obi-Wan : [incredulously] Your new Empire?
Vader : Don't make me kill you.
Obi-Wan : Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic! To democracy!!
Vader : If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!
Obi-Wan : Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

"If they're not for us, they're against us, right?"

Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker) had the "power of foresight". He saw what was going to happen to Padme, and in his efforts to stop it from happening he made it happen. Seems kinda reminiscent of the "End of Timer's" plight, but hey.
Not to mention the Jedi played by Samuel L. Jackson who went against the "Jedi Way" to kill the Sith who was "too dangerous to be alive" (eerily reminiscent of the Christians in support of Death Penalty), making Anakin react in turn to prevent what he perceived to be the only way to save Padme, thus making him the villian by default even though he was right in preventing the death of the Sith based on the Jedi's beliefs in the first place (George W sorta played out his own version of this with the Iraqi war). All Anakin had, was a noble will to save the love of his life. He was tricked by the very Sith lord he had protected from being unjustly killed, into believing that they would bring peace to the galaxy themselves, and peace for the future of his family, which up to the third movie had been being threatened by the Republics' inaction in the face of a threat that the Sith had fabricated himself, in order to gain control of the Senate (Makes me think of the Patriot Acts for some reason hmm). The Jedi failed Anakin. Anakin failed Padme, and Obi Wan just plain out failed at life. The Republic failed because it gave all its' power to one person and were self serving, not servants. The Jedi failed because they undermined their own belief system and lost the confidence of the "chosen one".

Absolutes: Black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, all these things lead to calamity because they are subjective to belief systems instead of realism. In reality: THERES GAY PEOPLE. In reality: WOMEN DONT DESERVE TO BE STONED FOR DISOBEYING MEN. In reality: CARS CAUSE GLOBAL WARMING, THE WORLD ISN'T ENDING UNLESS WE LET IT. In reality, I don't have a defeatist attitude towards the future of humanity.

I have just as much of a right to be me as you have to be you, and you have no right to tell me what to do nor I you. For the good of society, unbiased rules to prevent the harm of one another are required, as is reasonable enforcement. There is hope for an ideal society, we just don't live in it.

I don't go around taking peoples' rights to basic knowledge of science away because it doesn't cohere with my holy book. I don't go around claiming gay people deserve the death penalty, or calling for children and women to be burned for a non-existent belief system. I don't go around legislating the exclusion of Christians from Governing offices because of their religion, but here in the US the Christians make it impossible to be an atheist in office. Like, it's state law in A LOT of states.

All I ask is equal rights, equal treatment, equal opportunity, pretty much the Constitution of the US, which was the best ideal government layout in history, until like all governments: Religion took it over.

I am an atheist, and I am not for or against anyone. I'm certainly not against you, I like you. Nor am I against Ronedee even though he's an idiot.

I'm just for impartial justice, for impartial peace, for hope, for equality, and for the good of mankind.

[Drich]

Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker) had the "power of foresight". He saw what was going to happen to Padme, and in his efforts to stop it from happening he made it happen. Seems kinda reminiscent of the "End of Timer's" plight, but hey.
Not to mention the Jedi played by Samuel L. Jackson who went against the "Jedi Way" to kill the Sith who was "too dangerous to be alive"

Holy crap what are you talking about mace windu's actions were against the Jedi way? Did you even see they movie?!?!

Jedi kill sith, that is the Jedi way!!! What happened to darth maul in the first one? Who killed him? Who tried to kill count dooku in the second one? (Anikin, obi and yoda) who try to kill the palpatine after he turn vader and killed mace? (Yoda).

Killing sith is a non-issue heck anikin killed dooku with little hesitation after he literally 'disarmed' him x2/paid him back for taking his arm in the second movie. It's funny you mentioned the line ' he is much too dangerous to leave him alive' because that is exactly what palpatine said to him about dooku. And Annie took his head, but when his meal ticket was the one on the chopping block little orphan Annie chose the catalyst of his career over what was absolutely right.

George is a genius here(either by design or by default) because for the one who does not have solid standards here will only see a haze of grey as you do. Where those who know the 'Jedi code' will be able to see black and white.

(eerily reminiscent of the Christians in support of Death Penalty), making Anakin react in turn to prevent what he perceived to be the only way to save Padme, thus making him the villian by default even though he was right in preventing the death of the Sith based on the Jedi's beliefs in the first place (George W sorta played out his own version of this with the Iraqi war). All Anakin had, was a noble will to save the love of his life.

which is why I suspect that there was that rule against Jedi marrying. Because 'love' or rather what Annie though love to be was little more than a selfish indulgence, that for a time brought down his galaxy.

He was tricked by the very Sith lord he had protected from being unjustly killed, into believing that they would bring peace to the galaxy themselves, and peace for the future of his family, which up to the third movie had been being threatened by the Republics' inaction in the face of a threat that the Sith had fabricated himself, in order to gain control of the Senate (Makes me think of the Patriot Acts for some reason hmm).

Annie was not tricked he was conditioned to want what the sith offered, and choose selfishly rather than stand his post.

The Jedi failed Anakin.

no anikins betrayal of the Jedi started with his love a padme. Anikin failed the Jedi.

Anakin failed Padme, and Obi Wan just plain out failed at life.

your insane. No obi, no luke. No luke no "chosen one who brought balance to the force." He'd be a pile of bones next to aunt rue and uncle Owen. And the Death Star would have not only blown up alderan but the rebel base on the moon of yavin 4 as well, thus ending the rebellion. Ensuring 1000 year reich under palpatine.

The Republic failed because it gave all its' power to one person and were self serving, not servants. The Jedi failed because they undermined their own belief system and lost the confidence of the "chosen one".

the republic failed long before power it was handed over to palpatine. Corruption is the death of every republic in history. Before Annie, the force was Jedi heavy. Annie brought balance in that the sith rose to power clearing out the Jedi heavy side of the force, and luke cleaned out the sith. The prophesy pointed to luke not anikin. As luke brought real balance and galactic peace.

[Mystical]

I have seen the movie, first of all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI7qWFUfi...age#t=198s

---

Everyone please excuse me while I geek out on Drich now.
Thanks

Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker) had the "power of foresight". He saw what was going to happen to Padme, and in his efforts to stop it from happening he made it happen. Seems kinda reminiscent of the "End of Timer's" plight, but hey.
Not to mention the Jedi played by Samuel L. Jackson who went against the "Jedi Way" to kill the Sith who was "too dangerous to be alive"

Holy crap what are you talking about mace windu's actions were against the Jedi way? Did you even see they movie?!?!

See video. Then rewatch movies

By subscribing to prophecy, the Jedi lead to their own downfall.

Jedi kill sith, that is the Jedi way!!! What happened to darth maul in the first one? Who killed him? Who tried to kill count dooku in the second one? (Anikin, obi and yoda) who try to kill the palpatine after he turn vader and killed mace? (Yoda).

Killing sith is a non-issue heck anikin killed dooku with little hesitation after he literally 'disarmed' him x2/paid him back for taking his arm in the second movie. It's funny you mentioned the line ' he is much too dangerous to leave him alive' because that is exactly what palpatine said to him about dooku. And Annie took his head, but when his meal ticket was the one on the chopping block little orphan Annie chose the catalyst of his career over what was absolutely right.

Darth Maul was a rogue out to kill them. They killed him in self defense. Count Duku was planning an attack on the Republic, if I remember correctly. Again, rogue.
Palpatine was an appointed Chancellor of the Republic, and killing him was a wreally bad idea. Because then democracy would have ended, had Palpatine not stood trial and the Jedi just unsummarily usurped the elected Chancellor of an entire Republic. The second Windu would've killed Palpatine: The Republic would have died at the hands of the Jedi. Anakin trusted the Jedi, and Windu decided to go against the Jedi way (word for word from the movie), and kill Palpatine. Windu put Anakin in that bind, the Sith seemed to be disarmed and disabled when he decided to kill him. Again, not a way for a Jedi to act towards a captive, I surmise.
.

George is a genius here(either by design or by default) because for the one who does not have solid standards here will only see a haze of grey as you do. Where those who know the 'Jedi code' will be able to see black and white.

George is indeed a genius.
You, however... Can't see that it's the lack of solid standards in the Jedi, that lead to Anakin falling astray. For one: they went against their own creed and allowed Anakin to jump the ranks to his appointed position, just so they could then ask Anakin to spy on Chancellor Palpatine, something also not conductive towards a democracy or peace or even near the Jedi way. Jedi are supposed to stay in the background.

According to Wookiepedia: The Jedi Code is such:

"A Jedi does not act for personal power."
Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others, rather than rule over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training

(eerily reminiscent of the Christians in support of Death Penalty), making Anakin react in turn to prevent what he perceived to be the only way to save Padme, thus making him the villian by default even though he was right in preventing the death of the Sith based on the Jedi's beliefs in the first place (George W sorta played out his own version of this with the Iraqi war). All Anakin had, was a noble will to save the love of his life.

which is why I suspect that there was that rule against Jedi marrying. Because 'love' or rather what Annie though love to be was little more than a selfish indulgence, that for a time brought down his galaxy.

There was. Attachments are dangerous to Jedi. Still, there were exceptions. Perhaps allowing Anakin to be trained even though he was like 7 instead of from infancy would have to do with his need for attachments. The death of his mother, Padme being so important when he was young.. etc. The Jedi again did not listen to their own advice and allowed Anakin to be trained. Why? Because they listened to prophecy and made an exception for Anakin in their thirst for the Chosen Ones destiny (which they wrongly interpreted). Despite the fact that Yoda saw the dangers, the Council did what it did. Together.

He was tricked by the very Sith lord he had protected from being unjustly killed, into believing that they would bring peace to the galaxy themselves, and peace for the future of his family, which up to the third movie had been being threatened by the Republics' inaction in the face of a threat that the Sith had fabricated himself, in order to gain control of the Senate (Makes me think of the Patriot Acts for some reason hmm).

Annie was not tricked he was conditioned to want what the sith offered, and choose selfishly rather than stand his post.

Maybe conditioned by the Jedi to fail, and influenced by their short comings to question their authority. Got any references for this statement? I'm comin up blank on what you mean.

The Jedi failed Anakin.

no anikins betrayal of the Jedi started with his love a padme. Anikin failed the Jedi.

Anakin was not lead properly by the Jedi. They failed him.

Anakin failed Padme, and Obi Wan just plain out failed at life.

your insane. No obi, no luke. No luke no "chosen one who brought balance to the force." He'd be a pile of bones next to aunt rue and uncle Owen. And the Death Star would have not only blown up alderan but the rebel base on the moon of yavin 4 as well, thus ending the rebellion. Ensuring 1000 year reich under palpatine.

Luke was not the Chosen One, Anakin was. The Jedi were the ones who over-populated the Sith and tipped the balance. That's why the sith were in hiding. Anakin tipped the balance back to the Dark Side by becoming Darth Vadar. So, still not balanced. It wasn't until Anakin killed the Emperor in Return of the Jedi, that balance was restored and no force Dark or Light, ruled the galaxies anymore. If anything, Obi Wan Kenobi rectified his failings by adding Luke to the picture. But at the end of the day, in return of the Jedi: The Emperor had the upper hand, Luke would've died without intervention from his father and Obi wan kenobi would still have failed.

The Republic failed because it gave all its' power to one person and were self serving, not servants. The Jedi failed because they undermined their own belief system and lost the confidence of the "chosen one".

the republic failed long before power it was handed over to palpatine. Corruption is the death of every republic in history. Before Annie, the force was Jedi heavy. Annie brought balance in that the sith rose to power clearing out the Jedi heavy side of the force, and luke cleaned out the sith. The prophesy pointed to luke not anikin. As luke brought real balance and galactic peace.

Wrong.

---

All that said, Fr0ds and I were having a talk about absolutes. Here's a quote from one of our earlier conversations, which I indeed did ask you to commentate on and you declined with silence.

I hate no one. I hate what people do. I don't actually hate them for doing it. I'm even fine with there being no punishing recompense in an afterlife, too. How am I a hater, exactly? You reap what you sow, right? I reap love.

What's that saying?
"Only a sith deals in absolutes".
If I'm not for god I'm against him. Ronedrrr even said it word for word, "if they're not for us they're against us!"
Its that fear of someone being against what you stand for that leads to anger. Anger leads to hatred. And hatred leads to the dark side, right?

I beg the question again, why must I go to hell for disobeying so that others can go to heaven for ob eying? What do you mean by "Love is life, hate is death"?

http://atheistforums.org/thread-19389-page-29.html

My question stands unanswered. Why must I go to hell for not being for god? Why is there an absolute, given by god if he is indeed good? Why am I considered against you if I don't subscribe to your beliefs?

[fr0d0]

I'm totally with Drich. Your Star Wars summation sucks as much as your biblical one!

I'm sure I answered your last question. God is good and there's no other way to heaven... here on earth and afterwards.

Now you're rejecting the dogma and trying to do good under your own steam. You understand what God is though and you reject him, so I think you are actuality rejecting something of good. That may irritate you but I suspect it to be true. I sense the dark side in you padawan. Look at your absolutist statement! :p
It's possible to be innocent and be good and ignorant of God.

[Bad Writer]

This proves the Bible is not reliable, for the scribes writing it down have tampered with the original words.

So, you would use an unreliable source as proof???

What a crazy notion, eh?

[Mystical]

"Sucks," "insane", You guys don't have a clue what the movie is really about because you're happy with surface platitudes, like always. George is a genius, more than you know apparently.

Fr0do, what's the asolutist statement exactly? Im asking you to answer me why your brethren look at me as against them when really I'm for you. I'm for everyone peaceful. I simply disagree with the fundamental of why you feel the need to subscribe your good qualities to a god but I'm certainly not against you guys a n d it shouldnt matter what i believe. We are from the same family, after all

---

For a third time:

I beg the question again, why must I go to hell for disobeying so that others can go to heaven for ob eying? What do you mean by "Love is life, hate is death"?

[Faith No More]

I must say, it's nice to see Drich debating a different piece of fiction for once.

ETA: Oh, and BTW, the prophecy is about Anakin bringing balance to the force as he is the one that kills the emperor in the end.

[Cyberman]

I must say, it's nice to see Drich debating a different piece of fiction for once.

The one in which Luke blew up the Death Star and killed tens of thousands of people after listening to the voice in his head? Not all that much different, really.

---

Plus I don't think Lucas was all that much of a genius. Sure, the original trilogy was fun with some fascinating story strands and which would stand today as classic cinema if only he'd quit dicking around with it. However, consider this:

Princess Leia obtains the Death Star blueprints, beamed specially to her ship, and spends the first two acts of the original film actively resisting the Empire's attempts to recover them, not to mention protecting the Rebel base location. She hides the plans inside R2D2 with orders to locate Kenobi and get them delivered to her father on Alderaan. She even allows herself to be captured in order to divert attention from the droids and she is willing to die to protect the information, even gambling her home planet. She is a true leader and hero of the Rebels (I'm not even going to mention that the Empire pretty much forget about the stolen plans immediately after capturing her.)

While this is going on, Kenobi et al have found the remains of Alderaan and are captured by the Empire. They don't even know that Leia's aboard the station at this point; their focus is on freeing the Falcon and escaping. Rescuing Leia is just a bonus.

Okay, so they've escaped - and this is where the whole story goes down the pan. Vader and Tarkin have planted a homing device on the ship and allow it to escape. Now this is the important bit: Leia is fully aware of this. I can't stress that enough. She's realised their escape was too easy and therefore the Empire must be tracking them. So what would you do in that situation? Ditch the Falcon in deep space somewhere and hitch a ride on a ship without a tracking device on it? Look for the device on the Falcon and dump it out of an airlock? How about beaming the vital plans to another ship and then leading the Death Star on a merry wild goose chase across the galaxy? If you said yes to any of those options, congratulations - you're smarter than anyone aboard the Millennium Falcon, who go for the common sense route and proceed to lead the Death Star straight to the Rebel base. A base, remember, for which the Empire has literally no clue of the location. Bear in mind as well that none of the Rebels have even seen the stolen plans, so have no idea of their contents. Still, no worries; thanks to their brave and noble Princess, their one and only hope, they've now got a few hours at most to look for a weakness they might be able to exploit - that is, if there even is one ("I only hope that when the data is analysed, a weakness can be found.")

This complete dropping of the ball in the third act is especially mystifying, because right up until then, all the characters (and particularly Princess Leia) had done exactly the right things. Such totally out of character behaviour, that throws the first three quarters of the story so wildly off track, positively reeks of third-act desperation.

Nice one, George. No wonder you left the writing and direction to someone else for the sequels.

[christcahinkilla]

Why would you want to prove the existence of someone that doesn't have enough respect for you to even introduce themselves? It's impossible to prove otherwise, these types of debates are like irrational numbers they go on until people decide to be reasonable... there is no proof that irrational numbers are real, they reverse justify 'mysterious' concepts that religions are based on.


Experiment:

take a triangle with a side of 3 units and a side of 4 units and a hypotenuse of 5, calculate the differences of each of the 3 sides in a circle then put all numbers into a line; did you get 314152?

I did, in my opinion, there's nothing irrational or mysterious, everything has an answer.