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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:18 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 1:36 pm)whateverist Wrote: Personally I don't think most xtians are lying when they tell you what justifies their beliefs. It is common for everyone to interpret their experience in terms of their operating assumptions (which they might even think are divinely inspired). We all do it (except for the invoking divinities part). Remember lies are untruths told when you know them to be untruths. Most xtians are operating under the effects of Kool-aid. They believe that shit. (We just believe different shit.)
"Personally"? I believe "your" opinion is not valid. Kool-Aid is a LIE!
So, you are saying "your shit" is a lie too?
If we are standing on either sides of a line...who is telling the Truth?
So, what argument do the anti's have when they challenge me? How do you separate Truthful Christians from Lying Christians? Its rather contradictory wouldn't you say? Mincing of words?
"Well....we didn't say "ALL"!? Is that like: "It depends on what [is] means." type of argument?
We Christians are: either ALL saying the Truth, or we are ALL lying in my view of the subject.
So what is it? And use a good example besides drinking a "Lie".
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:21 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 4:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: We Christians are: either ALL saying the Truth, or we are ALL lying in my view of the subject.
So what is it? And use a good example besides drinking a "Lie". If you are saying that believing something that isn't true makes you a liar, then Christians believe that there are around 5 billion liars, and non-Christians think that there are 2 billion liars.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:24 pm
Geez, are you joking or are you really that thick? No, lying is not the opposite of telling the Truth. Lying is knowingly mispresenting as true what you know is false. Just because xtians aren't lying does not mean they 'have' the Truth. Far from it. You just have what you think is true. (I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:25 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 4:21 pm)Tonus Wrote: (June 23, 2014 at 4:18 pm)ronedee Wrote: We Christians are: either ALL saying the Truth, or we are ALL lying in my view of the subject.
So what is it? And use a good example besides drinking a "Lie". If you are saying that believing something that isn't true makes you a liar, then Christians believe that there are around 5 billion liars, and non-Christians think that there are 2 billion liars.
No. There are people who found the Lord.... and those that have not yet.
Lying has nothing to do with it.
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:29 pm
I think we need to make a distinction between someone thinking they know something is true (regardless of whether it actually is) and someone knowingly passing off false, unverifiable information for some purpose (usually to reinforce some agenda, perhaps because it has little to no truthful support and hence relies on falsehoods). Not every religious person is lying if they sincerely hold their beliefs to represent reality. Compare that to the examples shared above, in which a person of some authority is attempting to bolster the faith of their followers through implausible, unverifiable accounts (and yes, I am aware of the irony of using unverifiable accounts to make this point).
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 4:24 pm)whateverist Wrote: Geez, are you joking or are you really that thick? No, lying is not the opposite of telling the Truth. Lying is knowingly mispresenting as true what you know is false. Just because xtians aren't lying does not mean they 'have' the Truth. Far from it. You just have what you think is true. (I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)
No... just making you stress your pov. What you were insinuating is that Christians don't know the truth, and that is why they are lying. People drinking Kool-aide usually means: because they "want" to. Not because they are "forced" to.
So, you didn't say whether "ALL" was an appropriate use? Considering our universal Christian bias?
"(I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)" ...Is that an answer? Or, do you have doubts in your own mind?
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 4:25 pm)ronedee Wrote: No. There are people who found the Lord.... and those that have not yet.
Lying has nothing to do with it. I'm afraid its human nature to lie.
How do you differentiate between those who found the Lord, and those who claim to have found the Lord?
Likewise, how do you go about scrutinizing a self proclaimed Catholic, a "pillar of the community", from a lying manipulative money-laundering child-neglecting bastard claiming to be a Catholic?
Atheists are the only ones you can trust. Why would I lie to you about what I don't believe in? I've nothing to gain.
Its the believers you can't trust.
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 4:54 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2014 at 4:54 pm by Whateverist.)
(June 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)ronedee Wrote: (June 23, 2014 at 4:24 pm)whateverist Wrote: Geez, are you joking or are you really that thick? No, lying is not the opposite of telling the Truth. Lying is knowingly mispresenting as true what you know is false. Just because xtians aren't lying does not mean they 'have' the Truth. Far from it. You just have what you think is true. (I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)
No... just making you stress your pov. What you were insinuating is that Christians don't know the truth, and that is why they are lying. People drinking Kool-aide usually means: because they "want" to. Not because they are "forced" to.
What I am trying to say is that Christians don't know the truth any better than I do. I haven't a clue about gods but from what drivel I've heard they sound like nonsense to me.
(June 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)ronedee Wrote: "(I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)" ...Is that an answer? Or, do you have doubts in your own mind?
I only qualify it like that because I find the subject matter incoherent and I readily admit I don't have a clue. However, I don't have any lingering doubts that trouble me, if that is what you're wondering. It isn't anything I spend time pondering except in conversations such as this. I don't read the bible, atheist books or xtian apologetics. No real interest. Frankly I just don't care and won't until such time as what a god is exactly is made clear to me and are revealed to exist, and then only if they interest me.
(June 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)ronedee Wrote: So, you didn't say whether "ALL" was an appropriate use? Considering our universal Christian bias?
I can't seem to find where I used the word "ALL" so I'm not sure what you're referring to. Can you quote or link it?
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 6:16 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)ronedee Wrote: (June 23, 2014 at 4:24 pm)whateverist Wrote: Geez, are you joking or are you really that thick? No, lying is not the opposite of telling the Truth. Lying is knowingly mispresenting as true what you know is false. Just because xtians aren't lying does not mean they 'have' the Truth. Far from it. You just have what you think is true. (I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)
No... just making you stress your pov. What you were insinuating is that Christians don't know the truth, and that is why they are lying. People drinking Kool-aide usually means: because they "want" to. Not because they are "forced" to.
So, you didn't say whether "ALL" was an appropriate use? Considering our universal Christian bias?
"(I strongly suspect you are mistaken.)" ...Is that an answer? Or, do you have doubts in your own mind?
There's a clear difference in telling what you believe to be the literal truth, that is not aligned with facts (literal creationists, for example) and willfully misrepresenting the content of the bible to win converts or defend your religion.
I'd wager most people on here have at some point, provided a chapter and verse quote to a Christian, and have been told "No, that's not in the bible."
You could hand them a bible with the passage highlighted, and they'd still say it's not in the bible, and you're playing some kind of trick. That's pure willful delusion.
However, there are also apologists, like William Lane Craig, who have openly stated that if lying brings in another convert, it's OK to lie. Ray Comfort is in the same camp, and there are apologetic movements who will argue that since they already have "the truth," lying to a nonbeliever to attain a given goal is fair game.
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RE: Christian motives to lie.
June 23, 2014 at 10:23 pm
(June 23, 2014 at 3:57 pm)ronedee Wrote: Ok... in your opinion: are ALL Christians telling the truth when they say the only way to salvation is through Jesus?
No. Are all of them lying? Also no. People don't all fit into the same category, Ron. Some are sincere in their beliefs, some aren't. Some are outright lying, others aren't. I wouldn't dream of speculating about the ratio of that; I have no access to people's inner thoughts any more than you do. But I am realistic.
That cool with you?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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