Who are your favorite current Atheists?

[abentwookie]

First of all the psychos are out there, I met one rather more personally than I might like. Secondly, TF did not argue against teaching men not to rape. He did suggest that rather strongly, and I agree that stopping there does a disservice to women. We are not children. Paying attention to what we do matters. Not all men can be, or have been taught not to rape. Behaving as if they have is dangerous. Educate men all you like, I'm much more than good with that. But educate women too. That is my point and as I heard the video TF's.

Wow, my thread has gone off the rails and killed a bunch of people who were just innocently waiting at the train station. There are like 3 or 4 different discussions happening here. :o

I don't want to get into a big debate about thunderf00t but he is attempting to shift the responsibility entirely onto women in his video. The first problem is the false idea of the stranger jumping out of the bushes and raping someone. The reality is that the majority of rapes are committed by someone the person knows. This has been shown in study after study. So thunderf00t's advice isn't going to stop the majority of rapes.

He does mention that fact but then goes on to pull out the old MRA argument and suggests that acquaintance rape is basically just a case of a woman regretting sex.

He clearly has no understanding of the actually subject he is talking about, which seems to be a common problem for him with social issues.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, the purpose of the group was to fight against sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc... There was some disagreement about specific issues but nothing bad. Most of the problems came from the people complaining that Atheists shouldn't be involved in anything other than Atheism but there was also a lot of sexism coming from atheists, especially directed towards people like Jennifer McCreight (the founder), Greta Christina, etc... So yeah, some people were being obnoxious and needed to be removed. The people that I saw being accused of sexism and racism were BEING sexist and racist.

I think the problem is that a lot of people were talking about what happened even though they weren't actually there. Its similar to the thunderf00t incident. Some of his followers claimed he was banned just for posting an opinion that others didn't support but that isn't what happened at all. He was banned for being a belligerent tool and throwing a tantrum. Some people just don't understand the difference between acting like an ass and conveying your opinion in a mature and rational manner.

Of course, some people define being an ass differently, as well. I wasn't there for any of that netdrama. I remember IIDB flying apart, and RDF suffering almost the same fate, over heavy-handed site policies that sought to restrict what was being said on their forums. Now, A+ started out with these policies already in place, so while you won't see a disillusioned diaspora, I'd bet that the policies will necessarily limit its membership, and therefore, perhaps, its effectiveness.

[Lemonvariable72]

Well I don't actually agree with the analogy I do somewhat agree with the premise. No I don't think it's the victims fault in anyway if it does happen, but ifrc the point he is making in that video is that you can't just focus all on boys and fixed the issue.
Too illustrate my point, a woman should not be able to go and get drunk enough that she is unaware of herself, take a guy a home, then lay all sorts of blame on him saying he raped her.
alternatively a man shouldn't be able to rape a girl and say "we'll she was hitting on me" in defense.

Correct, but that doesn't fall on the definition of rape - I'm not talking about that. So how do you statistically propose to "prevent" rape considering that rapists usually (I think) don't self identify as such? You may not be aware but the common rapist is no different than the average male and is sometimes nice and caring

The scenario you propose is fuelled by men's rights apologists in defense of rapists who didn't realize having sex with someone who's passed out is rape.

No where in my illustration did I refer to a situation where someone is past out, what I refered to is a situation of people hooking up at a bar. And yes in many countries if you have consensual sex with a woman while she is drunk it can be legally considered rape.
Also I made no proposal at all on how to lower the rate of rape, but since you throw around that accusation of rape apologist (which I am not) here are a few ideas on how
1. Clear and reasonable definition of rape. I.even no more pedophilia charges for 19 year old women sleeping with 17 year old guys.
2. Ready and affordable mental health care
3. Proper sex ed
4. Classes geared towards mothers who want to teach there sons how to treat women properly.
5. Discouragement of dogmatic feminism, especially in educational intisuations. (Not all feminism by a long shot)
6. Free self defense classes for youngood women.
7. Clear positioning of the fact that all genders have equal rights and dealing incidents of sexism and harassment in a expedient and reasonable manner in schools and work places.

I think those implementations would go along to reducing rape.

[Dystopia]

No where in my illustration did I refer to a situation where someone is past out, what I refered to is a situation of people hooking up at a bar. And yes in many countries if you have consensual sex with a woman while she is drunk it can be legally considered rape.

Citation needed. That doesn't happen anywhere in the world - In fact, both parties can be drunk and have sex. What you're talking about is when someone is so intoxicated that she doesn't know what she's doing (and this is observable by anyone with half a brain) and you have sex with here - Example, a girl who is dizzy, singing out loud and really drunk, would you simply have sex with her knowing how she is?

Also I made no proposal at all on how to lower the rate of rape, but since you throw around that accusation of rape apologist (which I am not) here are a few ideas on how

I didn't but do go on

1. Clear and reasonable definition of rape. I.even no more pedophilia charges for 19 year old women sleeping with 17 year old guys.

I don't see the relevance of this, in my country 16 is enough to have sex with an 18 or 19, for both genders.

2. Ready and affordable mental health care

Not useful, only a posteriori

3. Proper sex ed

Alright, this is true - But you are corroborating my point

4. Classes geared towards mothers who want to teach there sons how to treat women properly.

I think it's a duty of both mothers and fathers - And also teach them to not rape other men, since it happens frequently as well

5. Discouragement of dogmatic feminism, especially in educational intisuations. (Not all feminism by a long shot)

I don't see the purpose considering feminists are probably the biggest rape opposer

6. Free self defense classes for youngood women.

This is what I'm talking about, it's all about telling potential victims that they need to defend themselves - Do you think that, we, as men, should all be encouraged to have self defence to prevent being mugged? Well, some men have, but it's not socially required to do so - Why do you think it's up to the victim to learn defence? Should children be taught as well to prevent pedophilia? Should all married women be taught in case of domestic abuse?

7. Clear positioning of the fact that all genders have equal rights and dealing incidents of sexism and harassment in a expedient and reasonable manner in schools and work places.

correct

I think those implementations would go along to reducing rape.

I have a better idea - Do you know why rape happens? Because rapists can get away with it - It's true, any criminal will commit more crimes if he knows he'll get away with it, most rapes are not even reported - If we started prosecuting rapists properly instead of asking victims what they were wearing or how much they drank it would make wonders to tell all potential rapists that society and the state is watching these women (and men too) and safeguarding them. So the first problem would be (1) To tell victims they should report it, because many are afraid of repercussions or not being believed (2) To tell them it's not their fault because many become depressed and blame themselves (3) And finally, start caring less about clothes, makeup and amount of alcohol or even physical beauty and instead ask - "Did you consent to sex or not?". If you are a rape victim you need to be a young woman with bruises and look skinny/attractive - Everything else is distrusted by cops as not being rapeable.

[Brian37]

What if you agree with the majority of their views, but think they are making a mistake on Issue X? What if they actually are making a mistake on that issue, but because of the requirement to not go against the grain, you cannot present a view or proposal which is possibly more useful?

This idea that you will always be able to find consensus in a group is chimerical, because people have different opinions on different issues, and the more issues your group intends to address, the more likely you are to have heterogeneous opinions inside your own group. Restricting the conversation to only those views approved by the leadership is certainly their right, at A+ -- but how much are they losing by requiring the membership to toe the ideological line?

Debate happens within every group of thinkers. Stifling it in the name of ideology is the act of valuing preachments above insights.

Oh, that is simple to address. It is fine to have a disagreement about a certain issue but when the majority of the group support it and are actively trying to get things done, then you need to know when to stop harping on it. If it reaches the point where you are a source of distraction and are causing problems within the group, then it is time to stop. This is what was happening during the Atheism Plus controversy. People weren't just disagreeing, they were causing rifts in the group. When that happens, the source of the rift needs to either tone it down or he/she needs to be removed. There is a massive difference between voicing your opinion and just causing problems.

If the group in question says something isn't open for debate and you are not okay with that, then you should find another group that suits your views. For example, thunderf00t was not removed from FreeThought Blogs because he was disagreeing with people about something. No, he was banned because he was being obnoxious about his views and basically having a public tantrum because no one supported what he was saying. He was a constant distraction in the community that needed to be removed. If you want to have a cohesive group that can accomplish specific goals then it needs to be free from this sort of problem. If people are always arguing about everything, you'll never get anything done.

No, I really hate this attitude that we shouldn't air our dirty laundry. If we want people to see atheists as individuals then they need to see our beefs otherwise they will stupidly think we are a monolithic entity, which we are not. I think it is extremely important to have our differences and I do not think that takes away from our progress.

If we don't like theists insisting on taboos, then we should not have taboos ourselves. I think we will be fine as a movement.

[Dystopia]

Wow, my thread has gone off the rails and killed a bunch of people who were just innocently waiting at the train station. There are like 3 or 4 different discussions happening here. Shock

I don't want to get into a big debate about thunderf00t but he is attempting to shift the responsibility entirely onto women in his video. The first problem is the false idea of the stranger jumping out of the bushes and raping someone. The reality is that the majority of rapes are committed by someone the person knows. This has been shown in study after study. So thunderf00t's advice isn't going to stop the majority of rapes.

He does mention that fact but then goes on to pull out the old MRA argument and suggests that acquaintance rape is basically just a case of a woman regretting sex.

He clearly has no understanding of the actually subject he is talking about, which seems to be a common problem for him with social issues.

Pretty much this, subscribed

[One Above All]

Teaching people self-defense skills is not the same as teaching them that they're responsible for whatever happens to them. Your comparison is idiotic, Dystopia. Additionally, "teaching people not to rape" works about as well as "teaching people not to steal/murder/jaywalk".
Self-defense is simply a handy tool for... you guessed it, self-defense. No, you're not to blame. But it wouldn't harm you in the least if you can kick your aggressor's ass in ten seconds flat. In fact, it would harm them. As for "teaching people not to (...)", who the fuck do you think is teaching people to rape?

[Dystopia]

Teaching people self-defense skills is not the same as teaching them that they're responsible for whatever happens to them. Your comparison is idiotic, Dystopia. Additionally, "teaching people not to rape" works about as well as "teaching people not to steal/murder/jaywalk".
Self-defense is simply a handy tool for... you guessed it, self-defense. No, you're not to blame. But it wouldn't harm you in the least if you can kick your aggressor's ass in ten seconds flat. In fact, it would harm them. As for "teaching people not to (...)", who the fuck do you think is teaching people to rape?

Actually, there is evidence that higher education of citizenship reduces all kinds of crime - You can look at northern European countries that have a good public education system. Additionally, if you look at countries like Saudi Arabia, you notice that rape is acceptable (specially between husband and wife) and therefore rapes are pretty high. So yeah, it corroborates my view, because ultimately all our problems come from a lack of education and healthy ideas. Why do you think rape is now lower than it was 50 years ago? Probably because with feminists and women activists rape is now looked at as a serious crime that shouldn't be done and not as something husbands and men can do to women (and other men)

My problem is not with teaching people self-defence, it's simply that it's not going to erase the problem. I think teaching self-defence for rape is the same thing as telling me I should learn self-defence to prevent mugging, I don't have that social obligation - You can teach self-defence but what you're doing is putting pressure on people to prevent crimes against them instead of investing in citizenship, education and sexual consent.

Statistically, if someone knows self-defence, that person will be able to prevent rape, but the rapist will rape someone else who doesn't know how to defend herself - Results = The statistics don't change, only the victim. Also, sometimes rape happens in contexts that people are either unable to defend themselves or simply putting it are afraid of the consequences specially if the aggressor is stronger.

I think no one teaches people to rape (or very few sick parents do that) - But how many parents teach kids to not rape as soon as well as teaching them not to steal? Sex is taboo, and naturally it is discussed less. Do you know that some aggressors truly don't know that what they do is rape? For instance, some rapists think having sex with someone who is literally passed out or asleep is not rape, and others think that after sex has started and the other party says "stop", they're still good to finish without consent. What does this tell us? Not that people are taught to rape, but they're not taught well enough to not rape. Murder, theft and even torture are incomparable because those crimes happen in different cases - Example - Theft happens mostly for profit, while rape is a relationship of power/submission, and murder happens for over 10 reasons I can think of, namely money, profit, anger, emotion, drugs, passion, state affairs, etc.


Oh a small edit - If you did decide to teach self-defence, since criminals are not dumb or stupid, most likely rapists would think "what can I do to counter this?" - Reply - Use a gun, learn martial arts, use rape drugs, etc. My point is that criminals eventually find a way to counter prevention and security so teaching self-defence wouldn't work in the long run. The method of self-defence on the grand scale is like giving guns to everyone and leaving those people to defend themselves - Some may shoot the criminal on time, but it isn't useful on the long run and criminals would most likely find bigger guns

[robvalue]

On the issue of "prominent atheists", I don't think I've ever heard any of them claim to "speak for atheism". In fact, most of them go out of their way to make it clear that this is not the case. It's mainly theists in my experience who assume that atheism must be like a religion so we have to be under someone's authority. Educating theists about atheism is very much an ongoing task.

Can't we just kill them all? It's quicker? No? OK.

Let's keep educating them.

[Lemonvariable72]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...judge.html
here is your citation. A young software engineer in Britain was thrown in jail for having sex with a drunk girl that was not passed out. This article refers to the cases being overturned after conviction by a superior court judge.