The right to mis-define oneself

[I_am_not_mafia]

If you don't think a man should should be traumatized by that situation, then fuck you too.  I'm a man, and if that happened to me, I would be traumatized.  And I can speak on behalf of many of my male friends, and say that they would be, too.

That's the thing-- you don't get to say who is/isn't or should be/shouldn't be traumatized.  If you don't think the majority of men would be traumatized if their hot date turned out to have a penis, then you are either living under a rock, or a liar.

Speak for yourself. I know that a lot of men can see past the extra appendages and treat a transwoman as a woman.

After all, what really matters here? Chromosones? What about women that are XY and were assigned female at birth? What about women who have extra chromosones? And you know that not all of those XX and XY chromosones are actually anything to do with gender don't you?

What about the ability to have children? Are infertile women no longer women? What about women who have had their breasts removed or female genital mutilation? The only thing that really matters is the brain. Although it's culturally quite common to objectify women and think of them in terms of their bodies, who any of us are is determined by the brain. Not by a soul, or by social class or our skin, but by our brains. This is why neurodegenerative diseases can rob people of who they are.

[Thumpalumpacus]

lol @ the DoJ as our source of moral correctness.

I'm not talking about morality, I'm talking about the definition of sexual assault. Surely you're intelligent enough to discern that, and are being deliberately obtuse here in order to avoid simply admitting error.

Okay, let's stop playing semantics, because I don't need to draw an equivalence to rape anyway.  I posed a simple question: do you or do you not think that a last-minute reveal is likely to cause trauma in many men?  Let's forget about the rape "analogy," and look at this in terms of assault.  Yes or no: do you believe a significant % of men will be traumatized by this experience?

Your withdrawing your stupid comparison without acknowledging its falsity is noted. I had thought you were better than that. I suppose I was wrong.

To answer your question: no. Are you so sensitive that you'd have lingering psychological issues because you saw a woman with a penis? Do you have numbers?

[Regina]

I don't think most men would be traumatised by the situation, unless they're uncomfortable in their own sexuality. Shocked I can accept, and confused, but "traumatised" is taking things to the Nth degree.

"ooh, a penis! aaaaggghh!" Like we don't all have them ourselves, please. It's a penis, not a Cobra.

[SteelCurtain]

Again bennyboy, with this red herring that you're clinging to. You are really adamant that there is something endemic to transgender people that will just force them to go out and pretend they don't have a penis, huh? It's a really stupid grift. Your idea seems to be that transgender people are all liars and shady types.

This is a problem only for shitty people. I've said it over and over again. If a transgender woman doesn't tell a potential sexual partner, that is wrong. But there is nothing to suggest that this is a particularly common thing that transgender people do. With any population, even straight cisgender males, these poor victims in waiting, there are shitty individuals who will not tell a partner about an STD or about a fetish they have. Once again, this isn't necessarily a problem with transgender people, but with people in general.

Okay, let's get scientific.  What about a transgender's brain structure or chemistry make her a woman?  

In this post there are Pictures!

And what would you say about an actual woman who does not have that specific brain structure or chemistry?

Show me a cisgender woman that has male brain structure and pathways but doesn't feel male, and we'll discuss that. For now, you don't get to just make up shit and have it be taken seriously.

[bennyboy]

To answer your question: no. Are you so sensitive that you'd have lingering psychological issues because you saw a woman with a penis? Do you have numbers?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. You're saying I'm an exception-- that I have psychological issues that would cause me to feel traumatized by a late-reveal penis in a sexual situation. I think you're lying in saying that a lot of men wouldn't be traumatized, because it's so obvious to me that they would be. So let's go to teh interwebs and see if we can collect a sample. But it's possible I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just a homophobe or I have some kind of complex. 1, 2, 3, 4. . . I declare a link war!

[Regina]

Only if you've never seen a penis in your life before tbh

Like I said, "shocked" or "confused" fine, but traumatised is just petty. But I'm with Steelcurtain anyway, it reflects badly on the person, not trans people as a whole. And yes it could be worse, some people lie about not having STDs. That's far worse, potentially life threatening if it's HIV

Also how much of this "trauma" is really just worrying about what your straight "bros" will think of you sleeping with a transwoman? That's what it really comes down to, embarrassment that you pulled "one of them".

[bennyboy]

Again bennyboy, with this red herring that you're clinging to. You are really adamant that there is something endemic to transgender people that will just force them to go out and pretend they don't have a penis, huh?

I've never said this, so I'd ask you to stop saying that I've said this.  I'm saying that if an actual woman is engaged in a sexual situation, no disclosure of anything (except maybe STD) is required, but if a transgender woman with a penis is engaged in a sexual situation, disclosure IS required, because a failure to disclose would be likely to cause trauma, or at least intense discomfort.  This means that the equivalence between a transgender woman with a penis and a woman is false-- they are not the same thing.  That this isn't immediately fucking obvious is an offense to reality.

[bennyboy]

Also how much of this "trauma" is really just worrying about what your straight "bros" will think of you sleeping with a transwoman? That's what it really comes down to, embarrassment that you pulled "one of them".

Look, stop trying to project onto me issues or attitudes that I don't have.  I'm not a one-night stand guy, and I'm married.  This is not a personal issue.  I'm saying that I believe many men would be traumatized by a last-minute penis reveal, and would not be traumatized by a last-minute vagina reveal, and that a transwoman with a penis is therefore not equivalent to a woman.

[SteelCurtain]

You keep coming back to it like it fucking matters one bit, though. It's been your go to argument from the first. Like "for this reason, we shouldn't consider these people women." Disclosure is required for all people, if you have something to disclose. It doesn't matter what sex or gender you are.

No one here has ever said that a transgender woman and a cisgender woman are the exact same thing. Not a single person, that I have seen here, is claiming that everyone should just disregard the fact that a transgender woman has a penis. We're saying their brains are more similar in the portions that define gender in a person, and that their body doesn't match. Since we cannot change pathways in the brain as yet, we change the body. We are challenging the notion that these people just "want to be x gender" instead of the idea that they really are x gender. But you keep on going back to this idea of "what if they trick me into bed and then pull a whaddayaknow! on me! I'll be mortified and scarred! I do declare!" shit, and it's stupid.

I can only go by the two pre-operative transgender people I know well enough to talk about this stuff with, and neither of them would ever get into a sexual encounter with someone who wasn't informed. Actually, one of them has been troubled so much by this in her life that she is still a virgin. In fact, for the one who has had sexual encounters, it has been the other way around. There are a lot of straight guys out there that fethisize the Chicks with Dicks genre of porn, (which is apparently in a top 10 grossing genre) and she gets taken advantage of every now and again. Goes to my point. Not fully informing someone is part of the travails of having casual sex. It happens all the time. Shitty people exist. I would bet, though I have nothing to back it up, that transgender people are less likely to be perpetrators of this little scenario you are so afraid of.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.  You're saying I'm an exception-- that I have psychological issues that would cause me to feel traumatized by a late-reveal penis in a sexual situation.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying no to "do you or do you not think that a last-minute reveal is likely to cause trauma in many men", which is a different thing altogether.

 I think you're lying in saying that a lot of men wouldn't be traumatized, because it's so obvious to me that they would be.

I'm not sure who died and vacated the position of spokesman for all men, but I'm pretty sure you ain't the new nominee. I really don't care what you think is "obvious" based on your own personal feelings, because that is simply you projecting your own feelings onto other men.

 

So let's go to teh interwebs and see if we can collect a sample.  But it's possible I'm wrong.  Maybe I'm just a homophobe or I have some kind of complex.  1, 2, 3, 4. . . I declare a link war!

I've already linked supporting my point that finding out your date is trans is not the equivalent to rape, which is the point I've been making all along. You lost this war before it started. You made an idiotic assertion and don't have the spine to admit error.

It's cool, I've seen thousands like you online over the years. The only surprise to me is that I had you pegged wrongly; I had thought that as a reasonable person, you could admit error when it has been demonstrated. Instead, you assert lying on the part of your interlocutor. It's all good ... but I know better about you, now.

(For the record, I haven't called you homophobic, or made any other insinuations about your character. I don't want any reader thinking otherwise due to what you posted above.)

[...]because a failure to disclose would be likely to cause trauma, or at least intense discomfort. [...]

Once more, backpedalling without acknowledgement. You should own your mistakes.