The nature of evidence

[TheRealJoeFish]

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Those are facts, correct. Nothing that you said after that are justified conclusions deriving from those facts.

The only way a completely orderless universe could exist would be by the intervention of an immensely powerful entity, because complete lack of order is an order in itself; truly chaotic systems always contain some degree of order. Order observably comes from chaos. And I will point out that there seems to be a LOT of disorder mixed in with the order you observe; why would there be any disorder at all in a handcrafted world?

It does take a mind to recognize that 'order is orderly'. It does not follow that a mind is required for order to exist; though I think one could make a case that a mind would be necessary for no order at all to exist. If there were no humans to observe how orderly their world is, it would still be orderly. A tree that falls in the woods with no one to hear still causes vibrations in the air.

To me, your reasoning seems to be going:

A. Facts.
B. I feel like order has to come from somewhere and the only kind of somewhere it can come from is a superior mind.
C. Therefore, Superior mind.

B is your feelings and intuitions. Your feelings are not evidence of anything outside your head. Reality is under no obligation to conform to your expectations. Even if it was sound to base your conclusion off B, the set of possible minds that could be proposed that satisfy C is potentially infinite, and all but one of those possibilities must be wrong. If you're trying to get to God, you would still need to show why your choice is the true one. The odds of you being right by chance approach zero very closely.

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It is interesting, but I do not entirely agree. I do not agree that order can come from disorder. That is, imagine you go to the beach and you find this on the shore:



You conclude this is ordered. You would never think that this comes from disorder, how could it? For that to happen disorder must know english and its propper grammar, disorder must also know how to choose the right rocks of a suitable weight, color and shape, but this belongs to order, not to disorder. If you found that same picture on the beach would you conclude it has been brought up by disorder, that it formed accidentally?

Of course not. We would claim that a human did it.

But that shows you're completely missing the point. If you saw the words "I AM GOD" on the beach in rocks, and could prove that a human hadn't done it, then maybe I'd listen to you.

But, no, that's not the kind of "obvious design" you're talking about. You're talking about the circulatory system or DNA or something. You know, the *incredibly inefficient* thing with all sorts of remnants of change over time and messiness and propensity to malfunction that resembles things like roots of a tree or crystals (rather than watches or computers or words) but just *has* to have a creator because, come on, guys, look at it, it's obvious, you're just not looking hard enough, your using your "brain thinking" and not your "soul thinking," you know, the kind of thinking where you come up with any twisted excuse you can why there is a god and when you succeed in cobbling together a convoluted string of non sequiturs you say "see, of course there's a god, because he designed that" and then you go home and plagiarize things from Ray Comfort's website.

/rant