Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 10, 2024, 5:02 am

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Supernatural isn't a useful concept
#48
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept
(November 6, 2016 at 1:31 am)Mudhammam Wrote:
(November 6, 2016 at 1:18 am)theologian Wrote: every created being is composed of: 1. Manner of Being and 2. Act of Being.
You just made that up.  But okay.  That's a problem, you say, because...
(November 6, 2016 at 1:18 am)theologian Wrote: Why is that every being that has manner of being must have a cause? Everything that doesn't have in itself its reason of existence must be caused, just as our projects don't have in itself the reason of its existence, (because our projects in itself doesn't include us whom made it), and thus it is caused. Now, every manner of being doesn't have in itself its reason of existence, because it is impossible that a being that has manner of being gives itself its manner of being, for to give something its manner of being is to be greater than its manner of being which is absurd (for example, a dog makes itself a dog while it is more than a dog at once and therefore not yet a dog). Therefore, everything that has manner of being is caused including, matter, energy and particles which has manner of being, for they are limited in being, that is, limited by its nature. Only God cannot have manner of being and only Him can be the Pure Act of Being. As the Scriptures said, He says that "I AM WHO AM".
If God is Pure Act of Being then action by which he causes a so-called manner of being is never in potentiality, or else God's action is only a possibility, and God is not Pure Act.  But if a manner of being is eternal because God's Pure Act is eternal, then you need only say that manner of being is eternal in the part of being rather its part as manner.  Moreover, to reduce God's potential action into actuality would require a prior actuality which, at the time prior to God's act, was not a sufficient cause to bring about God's causation of the manner of being.  Thus, you require a further cause to explain the cause of God's action, or his change of state from potentiality to Pure Act with regards to the subsequent manner of being, and then a cause to explain that cause, and so on.  But all of this talk of God is unnecessary.  "From nothing, comes nothing." The substratum of matter, energy, and particles is the Pure Act of Being, and hence, all of time is eternal.  
(November 6, 2016 at 1:18 am)theologian Wrote: So, if by principle of sufficient reason there must be a Pure Act of Being to explain the existence of beings which have manner of beings, then God Whom is Pure Act of Being must exist. Hence, atheist are gravely mistaken
But you require a cause to explain God's action failing to produce its effect across that infinite amount of distance that separates Pure Act from the Possible.

Please see if I have understood your point. I'll present here what I've understood. And then I'll give my comment.

It seems to me that you are saying that God creating creation is impossible, because that will give God potentiality and therefore it will falsify that God is Pure Act of Being. Is that what you are showing here?

If so, then this is what I can answer. It was demonstrated that God Whom is Pure Act of Being must exist. Now, it follows that there must be no potentiality in Him and you are correct in that proposition. However, creation is not God's action reducing from potentiality into actuality in Him. Remember, God must be Pure Act of Being. What then is creation? What is that potentiality that is reduced to actuality in creation? Of course, it is all the created things which is reduced from potentiality to actuality and not God when we're talking about creation. After all, created things are not God. It's like the case where Socrates didn't really became shorter when his friend became taller. Therefore, God's creation doesn't make Him not Pure Act of Being. Actually, this is where we can know that God is free and He loves us, for He created us even though He need not us because He is Pure Act of Being, so we are created so that we can share in His happiness.

Now, your second point is that matter, energy and particles are the pure act of being. Am I correct with that understanding?

Nothing can be further from truth. Matter, energy and particles cannot be Pure Act of Being. For, whatever is bounded by space cannot be Pure Act of Being, (for Pure Act of Being is Boundless, and whatever is bounded by space is not boundless). But, it is obvious that energy, matter and particles are bounded by space. Therefore, matter, energy and particles are not Pure Act of Being.

Now, what I can understand from your post is that manner of being is a perfection. However, manner of perfection is not something. Manner of perfection is what limits the act of being. Manner of Being thus limits and makes lesser the act of being of a being. Now, the principle of causality implies that the effect can either be equal or less than the cause, but not greater, for as we both hold: "from nothing, only nothing comes". But, the creation is something lesser which is caused by God Whom is Infinitely Greater than the creation, for creation is limited by its manner of being. So, creation is not against the principle of causality.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - October 23, 2016 at 7:09 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 7:25 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by brewer - October 23, 2016 at 7:48 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 7:49 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 7:52 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by ApeNotKillApe - October 23, 2016 at 8:00 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 8:10 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by ApeNotKillApe - October 23, 2016 at 8:24 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by ApeNotKillApe - October 23, 2016 at 8:40 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 8:01 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 8:02 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by ApeNotKillApe - October 23, 2016 at 8:12 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Minimalist - October 23, 2016 at 8:14 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Angrboda - October 23, 2016 at 8:18 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 23, 2016 at 8:30 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Whateverist - October 23, 2016 at 8:49 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 24, 2016 at 10:33 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by robvalue - October 24, 2016 at 1:25 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - October 24, 2016 at 10:22 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Whateverist - October 24, 2016 at 11:48 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - October 24, 2016 at 10:35 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by downbeatplumb - October 24, 2016 at 1:08 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 3, 2016 at 4:22 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Gemini - November 3, 2016 at 6:48 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Sal - November 3, 2016 at 7:21 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Alex K - November 3, 2016 at 7:41 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Brian37 - November 3, 2016 at 7:58 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - November 3, 2016 at 9:16 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Doubting Thomas - November 3, 2016 at 12:53 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - November 3, 2016 at 2:00 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Gemini - November 3, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Sal - November 7, 2016 at 9:50 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - November 3, 2016 at 3:53 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by downbeatplumb - November 5, 2016 at 6:11 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - November 5, 2016 at 2:20 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Mudhammam - November 7, 2016 at 1:24 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 5, 2016 at 7:21 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by downbeatplumb - November 6, 2016 at 5:57 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Alex K - November 5, 2016 at 7:26 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 6, 2016 at 1:18 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Mudhammam - November 6, 2016 at 1:31 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 6, 2016 at 3:11 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Mudhammam - November 6, 2016 at 11:11 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 8, 2016 at 7:59 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by chimp3 - November 8, 2016 at 8:14 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Grandizer - November 10, 2016 at 2:40 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 10, 2016 at 3:07 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Grandizer - November 10, 2016 at 3:18 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 10, 2016 at 9:50 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Grandizer - November 10, 2016 at 10:27 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Ignorant - November 10, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Grandizer - November 11, 2016 at 9:47 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Ignorant - November 11, 2016 at 2:16 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Grandizer - November 11, 2016 at 7:15 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Ignorant - November 12, 2016 at 3:15 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Mudhammam - November 6, 2016 at 1:15 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - November 6, 2016 at 7:11 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 6, 2016 at 9:21 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - November 6, 2016 at 11:24 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 8, 2016 at 8:23 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - November 8, 2016 at 11:11 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Minimalist - November 6, 2016 at 8:31 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - November 6, 2016 at 9:41 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Whateverist - November 7, 2016 at 7:27 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 8, 2016 at 9:09 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 8, 2016 at 9:26 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Rhizomorph13 - November 8, 2016 at 9:44 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by Edwardo Piet - November 8, 2016 at 9:47 pm
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 9, 2016 at 4:31 am
RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept - by theologian - November 10, 2016 at 2:36 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Testing a Hypothesis about the Supernatural Bahana 103 16839 June 18, 2018 at 2:47 pm
Last Post: SteveII
  Is the idea of self a coherent concept? bennyboy 5 1254 January 1, 2017 at 10:21 am
Last Post: Angrboda
  If a supernatural intelligence did create the universe..... maestroanth 12 2123 April 20, 2016 at 8:36 pm
Last Post: bennyboy
  Let's play with the concept of 'Supernatural' ErGingerbreadMandude 13 2180 March 22, 2016 at 4:01 am
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  New suppositions about God and the supernatural entities A-g-n-o-s-t-i-c 30 11106 January 20, 2016 at 1:53 pm
Last Post: A-g-n-o-s-t-i-c
  'Success' is an illusionary concept. CapnAwesome 24 5081 December 19, 2015 at 4:36 pm
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  Meaninglessness of the god concept Captain Scarlet 7 2854 September 15, 2015 at 5:36 pm
Last Post: Alex25
  What is Supernatural? ErGingerbreadMandude 50 9811 September 14, 2015 at 10:35 am
Last Post: robvalue
  One philosophical argument for existence of supernatural. Mystic 59 16310 July 20, 2015 at 10:01 pm
Last Post: Cato
  Open challenge regarding the supernatural robvalue 38 6287 May 20, 2015 at 11:53 pm
Last Post: Faith No More



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)