Nationalism and secularism

[kılıç_mehmet]

You are not being oppressed.

It is not just about me, friend. Turkey doesn't need to be under enemy occupation to know about it. Besides, many of our brothers are under the oppression of the slav and the chinese in Eurasia, so that the fact that we're not as oppressed as they are still doesn't change anything about their condition. Once more, freedom will come to our people from the east, but Turkey must be in a position to take a temporary leadership in securing the economical and cultural independence of our comrades in central asia and elsewhere, we should also encourage immigration from lands such as Afghanistan, where many Turkmens and Usbeks live, to our own lands.

Turkey is a -founding- member of NATO. It wasn't conscripted or drafted into it. You helped us to form it

We did, as the Soviets were a big enough threat for us to look for allies. But now, such an alliance has no value no more. Just like we have used the Soviets in our war for independence, we should have used the NATO, and parted in friendship.
Now, the NATO is the reason why there are foreign bases in our lands. It is time we quit this unnecessary alliance and look for new horizons.

in your bid to join the European Union

This bid is nothing more than a dream. The Europeans will never let us in their Union, nor do our people want to be a part of this union.

You are your own sovereign nation.

No thanks to you, though.

You're simply dissatisfied with it because it includes people who are the wrong shade of lipstick.

I am dissatisfied with it, because we have to align ourselves with people who view us not as mutual allies, but would have us rather as their dogs, their guardian pets in the middle east. We do not need the europeans, nor the americans to form our future. This is as simple as that. And as for your last advice, maybe that's what you should do. It's not us who are consistently overstepping our boundaries to look for new places to siphon natural resources from.
Just as the NATO was a guardian of freedom during the days of the Cold war, now it has taken it upon itself to enslave others. This alliance is no longer in our best interests.

You've waffled back and forth in these last two posts between "blood" and culture. How, precisely, would the consortium of cultures speaking the same lingua franca make you (or anyone) "pure-blooded" turk, whilst simultaneously not being capable of making myself, for example, a "pure-blooded" american?

No. Americans are not an ethnicity. They are a nation that are founded on the accord of living on the same land, a geographical union. Turks, however, are an ethnic group. I guess you simply don't understand these notions.
Besides from having the same language and culture, we are of the same ethnicity, same blood. Else, we would not call ourselves Turks, but something else. Else, we would not speak Turkish.
Turk and American, are not identical in any way.
"American" is nothing more than a nationality. "Turk" is both an ethnicity, a word used by all Turks to denote Turks around the world, whatever their tribe might be, and the official term for nationality used in Turkey, as Turkey was founded as a primarily Turkish dominated country, as it is now.
But there is no "ethnic" american, outside of groups what we can denote as native-americans, or red indians.

People from many places and many different backgrounds assembled under one banner

In the case of Turkey, only people of the same background have assembled together. Only Turks. Just, Turks. Turks from Balkans, Iraq, Crimea and other places of Tzarist Russia have flocked to Turkey exclusively because it was a Turkish country. If you knew anything about Turkey's history, you probably would know what you're talking about.

I give you a nice tidy little study and all of a sudden actual blood isn't good enough for you.

If this study of yours is incorrect and inaccurate, what can I do?
Besides, as you have not read any Turkish nationalists writers, you obviously do not have any idea what I'm talking about. I've explained here on various accords that purity in Turkish blood is measured in ancestry. If the last two ancestries of a person are Turkish, we know for sure that person is ethnically a full blooded Turk. Looking back nine or ten generations to find a single albanian in the bloodline is not really something a normal person would do. And the fact that there was a single deviation would not make the person less of a Turk. Of course, that is not to suggest that I do not know for a fact that Anatolia is genetically also Turkish. I've seen studies that have said the quite opposite of what you've said. But if I'd post them over here, you'd probably dismiss them as nationalist propaganda.
This is why I have tried to explain things to you in a way from which you can draw your own conclusions, but it seems like you simply want to believe in what you want to.
This of course, is your choice.

Archaeology isn't good enough for you? You'd prefer your personal myth structure over genetics and fact?

Archaeology? I don't know what sort of an archaeological evidence you want to put before me, but if you want to talk in terms of skull measurements and shapes, I can tell you, you're in deep trouble. The Turanoid skull type is the most prevailant type in Turkey. Dolicosephalic skull shapes are to come by in the heavily armenoid type populations of Kurdish dominated regions. Maybe they did these genetic tests in Diyarbakır? I guess the Turkish population in that city was about 10%(mostly gov. clerks, teachers and etc. from other regions in Turkey), the rest were kurds, armos and syriacs.
And as I said, I have genetic studies that present the quite opposite of what you state. Posting them here would change your opinion as my opinion was changed by yours. Plus, I have history on my side.

I remain unconvinced. My knowledge of Turkish history looks to be more competent than your own. I refer to archaeology, linguistics, and genetics. You have myths. If you want to "disprove" -someone else's study- then go do some science. Start by getting yourself sequenced. Get all of your pure-blooded buddies sequenced. Let's see what sort of story your blood has to tell?

Really, as I live by your conviction that I'd die by your disbelief. You have no knowledge of Turkish history. If you had any, you would not come before me with such things.
As you refer to those things, so do we. We already have disproved your studies. We have our own. But obviously, nothing that we will ever do will be enough for you, as it never was. I can very well get myself sequenced. But why would I? I do not doubt the purity of my blood. If I were like a mixed blood, who did not know who he was, or where he came from, I'd consider getting a gene test. But I know my family history well. I certainly need no such test.

You dismiss the empires and accomplishments of others so very easily, why then should we not dismiss your own?

You already do, as a matter of fact. The west has long dismissed our accomplishments, and tried to erase us from history a couple of times, but failed.
And American accomplishments...Well, for a relatively new country, not bad, but still, why should I really be in awe at your thin list, in comparison with our grand past?
The only people I see that could rival us in that, are the Indians(not the red indians), Persians, Greeks and Chinese. The rest are really irrelevant in my eyes.

You say that these things mean nothing to you, but then go on to claim that they will be the tools you use to establish Turan?

Indeed. What else? I already said that we do not support an isolationist approach to world politics.
Did Chingiss Khan, who knew nothing of building siege equipment, use the knowledge he learned from the Chinese to besiege cities?
Did the Kypchaks not adopt local variaties of the Chainmail into their armour?
Of course, we are going to use modern technology, but one thing we won't do, is to do the same mistakes of the past, and depend on others for our technological advancement.

You make appeals to your ancestors, but seem to ignore precisely why they did so well. You would exclude this or that peoples as being part of this "Turkic" power, but this isn't how your ancestors accomplished what they did. They went around gathering everyone they could find under their banner, and then attacked a fractured Europe so busy fighting itself that it could not defend it's borders.

Well, there you are wrong, it seems like you know nothing of Turkish history, once again. True, the Huns had quite a lot of allies amongst the Germanic tribes. But most were well documented tribes who have once again, revolted against the Huns after Attila's death, and now constitute a part of the modern Germanic peoples of Europe.
As we're not going to invade Europe once more, we do not need the assistance of dependencies and client kingdoms, as we had during the Ottoman days, like Hungary, Wallachia, and etc.
Now, we have ethnically stable nation states, definite borders. We just need to unite, that is all.

Culturally diverse and united peoples have consistently beaten the shit out of their enemies since the dawn of time.

Culturally diverse, true. United, wrong. Were the Ottomans, culturally "diverse" ever united? 600 years did their empire last, but I saw no shred of unity amongst them, as their empire is now fractured into many, many more states. As though most of them were little more than tax-revenues anyways! Christians were not allowed to fight, arabs, albanians, and bosniaks served as little more than militia, all the while Turks were still the backbone of the army until the last days of the Empire!
This is why the Ottoman Empire was rightfully known as a Turkish empire, rather than a "multiethnical" empire. This is why none of the other states besides Turkey were held accountable for Ottoman war debts, this is why no other country includes the Ottoman empire as a part of their heritage.

Culturally diverse, yes, but dominated by the Turk, our empires always were.

You have a country, it is a democracy. You want Turan? Make it so. If you can't get the votes, then "you" as in the turkish people, do not want Turan. That would make it the petty little fantasy of a fringe group of racists. Which is precisely what it seems to be......

This is our goal. But I don't know how you can call it a petty little fantasy from our part, while we have seen many, many fantasies passing us by...
Turan is not a fantasy, it is a much needed reality. I don't need you to grasp this, I need our people to grasp this reality. You call it a pipe dream as much as you will. It is not within your lips to say so.

I've noticed that the strongest rebuttal you seem to have in your toolkit is that I am mixed blood, or simple.

I did not use your mixed-blood as a rebuttal. I use it to let you know what you are. I use it to let you know why you oppose the idea of a pure-blood so much.

One isn't an insult, it's a compliment. Hybrid vigor over racist fairy tales any day of the week.

If you take it as a compliment, fine by me. However, I don't view it as an insult either. I would, if I were a mixed blood, though.
For me, it's just a string of words to denote what a person is in my eyes.
I could say it immidiately tells me something about your way of thinking. And it did, certainly, throughout our conversation. You act very much like the mixed bloods, and ethnic minorities in our country act towards Turks(poor bloods, as no mixed blood is ever a Turk in my eyes), regardless if they are outspoken, regardless of political ideologies.
They simply seem to hate the idea that a Turkish people exist in this country. They would like to think of this country as "the America of the middle east" and being a Turk simply being akin to an American, just as you put it forth. But when you explain it to them, they suddenly turn very very angry. Not the minorities, no, they hate to be called a Turk, and act very agitated if you keep calling them something they aren't, but half breeds are something else. They have both Turkish and some other blood in their veins. They cannot diss their Turkish identity, but they cannot fully adopt it because they have something else in there they're very well aware of. In my eyes, mixed bloods are more of a liability towards our cause more than any ethnic minority could ever be. For we know who the minorities are. But we can't always tell who the mixed blood is. He might be with us, next second, he might switch sides.

If this mutt were so simple you'd have long ago been able to persuade me to see the light with your well thought out, competent, and factually accurate arguments. You have not, and cannot, because they are not. You know I've finally realized what it is about you that gives me such a soft spot for you even though you consistently fly off at the mouth with shit like this. You remind me very much of my own family.

If you can't be persuaded, it's fine by me. Maybe I'll keep this thread handy to answer any further accusations you'll bring towards me in the future.
My ideals are firm as ever. They are, because you tried to answer my posts with a final insult. You called my people a bastard, as do the people of your likeness do here. At least you were more polite than they could ever be.
Let us end this discussion here.