Is 'faith' really a 'great cop-out'?

[Darwinian]

If space or matter didn't have anyone create them, then why can't an intelligent designer have not had a creator?

Then who or what created the creator, and who created the creator of the creator? etc. etc.

I do understand yours and Evidence's reasonings about this. I just don't get bothered by the so called complexity of such a creator. It is mind boggling to think there might be an intelligence that started all this but I can't ignore the markers (molecules, space, us etc) pointing towards the real possiblitiy that such an Intelligence exists.

There is a rocky outcrop on Mars. When the light hits it in just the right way it is impossible to look at it without seeing a face. Of course, there is no face there, it's just a hill, but, the human brain is wired in such a way that it seeks out other human faces. This, I think, is also true when people are confronted with such beautifully intricate things such as eyes or the wings of a bird or the atomic structure of protein etc. They simply cannot get that nagging thought that it was 'designed' by someone or something. When you think about it, there is plenty of evidence that this is the way the mind works but no evidence that it is an accurate interpretation. Things only seem designed because that's the way our brains work.

Why must God 'be complicated beyond belief'? All creatures are limited to what they can understand. If there is a creator then it stands to reason we would not be able to 'understand' how great He is etc.

This is entirely possible. You cannot teach a Dog the scalar equation and so it may also be that our brains are simply not 'wired' to understand all that there is to understand. This, however is no reason to fall back on the notion that an all powerful creator is present. If we do not understand something then the best thing to do is to study and learn rather than create stories and characters than 'seem' to fit what we think are facts.

I am not concerning myself with just who this God is.

This seems to be a fundamental issue though. If you were to say that 'God' is in fact the Universe itself with all of it's laws of physics, quantum mechanics, time, mathematics etc. and that all that really exists is consciousness itself and everything else is simply imagined then that would be a very different 'God' from the monstrous character from the Old Testament.

I do however believe He would stand for all things good, hence why I try to do the 'right thing' e.g turn the other cheek when someone pisses me off, or help my neighbour when I know they'll try to take advantage. Stuff like that.

Are you good because you think God wants you to be good or are you good because you are good? If it were proved to you beyond all doubt that there was no God would you still be a good person? I suspect you would.

Therefore, could it not be that you are transferring your finest qualities onto this character in your mind?

I've never thought of God as just 'willing stuff into existence'. He's not a conjurer who makes stuff appear out of nothing. Physical stuff, or natural stuff must come from somewhere (I imagine from God Himself).

But where would he get the stuff from? He would have to create it first, and what would he create it from? If he does exist and he did, let's not say create but instead say, brought about the conditions necessary for our Universe to exist, then he would have had to have willed it.

This then of course poses more problems that it answers.

Which brings me to Evidence vs Faith's comments:'God is supernatural therefore he goes completely against the laws of the universe as there is no evidence of him (or anything supernatural)'. Just maybe we have got the wrong idea about supernatural. I believe it is natural only 'different'

If it's natural, no matter how different, then it must follow the laws of physics and be bound by their limitations. If this is the case then it cannot exist outside of space or time, cannot have existed before the Cosmos so therefore cannot have created it.

The only answer is to say that the Cosmos created itself. Then you have to ask yourself, is the Cosmos conscious and motivated or is it simply and blindly following it's own laws?

(I'm struggling for the right word- I'm enjoying a well earned glass of wine having been up since half five and spent all day cleaning etc and it's gone to my head). If He made the laws of the universe then He will hardly go against them. I'll quit now before I get tipsy.

I agree, it's very tricky so enjoy your wine while I enjoy my roast dinner