The Case for Theism

[Drew_2013]

Texas Sailor,

I do not know that a creator was definitely not involved in the existance of our universe. I do not know this because I do not have evidence to prove that one was not in fact involved.

None at all? I'm a theist and I can think of some evidence that would lead one to conclude no Creator or God was involved.

I saw an example one time that illustrates this perfectly.
If I had 2 clear glass jars that both appeared to be empty.
I told you that one of them was infact empty but the other had a God in it that was responsible for every answer to every question you could have about anything.
But this God could not be seen or heard by you.
It lacked any attribute that you would associate with any actual being or thing whatsoever.
There was no experiment that you could do that shows that anything existed in the "God Jar" that didn't exist in the empty jar.
How then would I convince you of this claim?

It illustrates something perfectly but not the situation we're discussing. Using your illustration we have two jars containing the universe, life, sentient life and a universe with extremely narrow characteristics that allow the only type of life we know exists. The existence of the aforementioned in a jar is attributed to mindless, lifeless forces that didn't plan, design or intend the things that exist in the jar to happen. It was a fortuitous act of serendipity. The things in the other jar is attributed to a Creator who caused and intentionally designed the things in the jar. Both sides argue from the things that exist that their explanation is correct.

I'm not sure how you missed the boat on this Sailor but how did you miss the fact that theists attribute the existence of the universe, life and sentient life to God? Did you think about what theism and atheism means?

The universe we have is precisely the one that could be expected and explained by a universe created out of chance from nothing. It is most likely quantum.

I'm glad you brought this up because early in this discussion I brought up the notion held by some atheists that the universe came into existence uncaused out of nothing and I was told few if any atheists hold to that notion. When I say I believe God designed, caused and created the universe to exist, I'm told its an act of magic...but you claim the universe came into existence uncaused out of nothing, which one of those claims seems more magical to you?

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Stimbo,

Oh really? Say, here's an idea: why don't you try, you know, actually asking me what I believe (or not) instead of imposing some convoluted invention of your own, tailored solely to prop up your own arguments (such as they are)? Would that work, do you think?

This is an open speech forum share whatever thoughts you like.

I lack such belief, to be sure, but it's not the only tool in my box (Fnarr! Fnarr!). I also have an inbuilt filter to analyse new ideas and determine the validity of evidence. That's the difference between being open-minded and being credulous (or gullible, if I'm feeling mean). It's not my fault if your "reasonable case" happens not to make the cut. Get better facts.

Do you lack belief we owe the existence of the universe and our lives to mindless lifeless forces that didn't plan or intend our existence also?

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Esquilax,

Yeah, I'm not going to go through word by word on your disgustingly oversimplified straw man of my argument, Drew. I'm just going to say this; whether the universe came into existence or not, nothing you've presented brings us anywhere near a creator god. You're just twisting things so that they fit your presuppositions, then showing just how amazingly dishonest you are in addressing any counterarguments.

Good idea I'd quit while I was a mile behind and can still muster some dignity. You got hoisted by your own petard don't come whining to me about it.