RE: The Case for Theism
March 31, 2013 at 11:25 am
(This post was last modified: March 31, 2013 at 11:27 am by Drew_2013.)
Quote:Again dude, you're firing from the hip and not realizing what the analogy is showing. Let me break it down.
You're mistaken, its not that I don't understand what you're attempting to point out, its that I don't agree with the premise or the conclusion and failure to agree doesn't constitute lack of comprehension on my part.
Quote:Jar 1- The universe as seen through the eyes of an Atheist. It is what it is without inserting a God. There is no reason to believe that anything invisible that lacks evidence or any other attribute shared by all other observable things is inside Jar 1.
Of course provided you assume that mindless, lifeless forces without plan or intent burped a universe into existence that supports and created something totally unlike itself, life and sentience. No one is contending that God is inside the jar just as when I am inside a car I don't expect to pop open the hood and find the Creator of the car inside the engine compartment. Even so I infer the existence of a creator of the car just the same.
Quote:The universe without a God is exactly the universe we would expect if it were created by chance without a God. If you are to show that it is one that would be made by a God, I would live to hear it, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Why would you love to hear it? Are you secretly hoping God exists? Suppose we observed a universe of utter and complete chaos with no discernable laws of nature, no life and no sentient life. Wouldn't such a universe be closer to what you would expect if it was the result of mindless lifeless forces that didn't care or intend life to exist? In contrast we observe ourselves in a universe that does have laws of nature and has the characteristics by the narrowest of margins not only to support life as we know it, but to support planets, solar systems, stars and galaxies. On what basis would we expect to find a universe that appears to be carefully crafted for the existence of sentient life if caused by forces that didn't plan or care if life came about?
Quote:The beginning of the universe was very harsh and unstable. It was anything but what I personally would expect a God of perfect power to make. Why all the mess? Why so many years of unstable particles and gasses just floating around?
What natural force caused the beginning of the universe? The beginning of the universe could have been far more unstable. If there have been equal parts matter to anti matter it would have all fizzled out before it began, there is no reason there was slightly more matter than anti matter. If there had been more mass the universe would have collapsed upon itself or if the force of gravity had been stronger. Several characteristics within an extremely narrow range had to occur in order for there to be planets, stars and galaxies. If there wasn't such a thing as dark matter, galaxies would fly apart. In order for us sentient beings to exist, the information required to produce that result had to be present when the universe began to exist, it couldn't be added later. Why would mindless forces that don't care about planets, stars or humans have such information? You claim the universe we observe is what you'd expect from mindless lifeless forces that didn't intend life or sentience to exist, would you expect such forces to create life and sentience? On what basis would that be your expectation? If the universe was purposely created to support sentient life then our expectation would be for the universe to fall within the characteristics (no matter how narrow) to allow such to occur.
(March 31, 2013 at 11:25 am)Drew_2013 Wrote:Quote:Again dude, you're firing from the hip and not realizing what the analogy is showing. Let me break it down.
You're mistaken, its not that I don't understand what you're attempting to point out, its that I don't agree with the premise or the conclusion and failure to agree doesn't constitute lack of comprehension on my part.
Quote:Jar 1- The universe as seen through the eyes of an Atheist. It is what it is without inserting a God. There is no reason to believe that anything invisible that lacks evidence or any other attribute shared by all other observable things is inside Jar 1.
Of course provided you assume that mindless, lifeless forces without plan or intent burped a universe into existence that supports and created something totally unlike itself, life and sentience. No one is contending that God is inside the jar just as when I am inside a car I don't expect to pop open the hood and find the Creator of the car inside the engine compartment. Even so I infer the existence of a creator of the car just the same.
Quote:The universe without a God is exactly the universe we would expect if it were created by chance without a God. If you are to show that it is one that would be made by a God, I would live to hear it, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Why would you love to hear it? Are you secretly hoping God exists? Suppose we observed a universe of utter and complete chaos with no discernable laws of nature, no life and no sentient life. Wouldn't such a universe be closer to what you would expect if it was the result of mindless lifeless forces that didn't care or intend life to exist? In contrast we observe ourselves in a universe that does have laws of nature and has the characteristics by the narrowest of margins not only to support life as we know it, but to support planets, solar systems, stars and galaxies. On what basis would we expect to find a universe that appears to be carefully crafted for the existence of sentient life if caused by forces that didn't plan or care if life came about?
Quote:The beginning of the universe was very harsh and unstable. It was anything but what I personally would expect a God of perfect power to make. Why all the mess? Why so many years of unstable particles and gasses just floating around?
What natural force caused the beginning of the universe? The beginning of the universe could have been far more unstable. If there have been equal parts matter to anti matter it would have all fizzled out before it began, there is no reason there was slightly more matter than anti matter. If there had been more mass the universe would have collapsed upon itself or if the force of gravity had been stronger. Several characteristics within an extremely narrow range had to occur in order for there to be planets, stars and galaxies. If there wasn't such a thing as dark matter, galaxies would fly apart. In order for us sentient beings to exist, the information required to produce that result had to be present when the universe began to exist, it couldn't be added later. Why would mindless forces that don't care about planets, stars or humans have such information? You claim the universe we observe is what you'd expect from mindless lifeless forces that didn't intend life or sentience to exist, would you expect such forces to create life and sentience? On what basis would that be your expectation? If the universe was purposely created to support sentient life then our expectation would be for the universe to fall within the characteristics (no matter how narrow) to allow such to occur.
On a side note, Einstein was a great scientist couldn't you find a more flattering picture of him?
