The Case for Theism

[The Grand Nudger]

Pardon me did I mistakenly lead you to believe I give a rats ass if think I've made a case or not? In case there was any ambiguity I don't care what your opinion is. I'm responding to what you wrote if I find it interesting, nothing more.

Is that code for "I can't support my position"...? I assumed, what with you taking the time (at least) to write out a summary of what you found compelling about others arguments from design that you might appreciate the usefulness of feedback from someone who disagrees. Refine your approach, trim the fat - so to speak.

Just because the point eludes you doesn't mean its going no where your assurances not withstanding.

If the point has eluded me, and if you wish to make it - as the bearer of said point...that would be a failure on your part you might want to remedy.

We do know that autonomous sentient beings can initiate action. By saying you don't know then you mean you don't know if we owe our existence to a Creator or not...true?

You'd like to modify you claim, see..that's what I was hoping for (and it;s honestly what you needed to do anyway - because my statement still stands, neither of us know how everything ultimately "began". Unfortunately for your modification - that doesn't mean that we don;t know some of the ways it didn't - which is a group of things that includes your design and your designer - unless you'd like to establish the existence of either in the face of massive evidence to the contrary. That would be impressive, and I'd love to see you do it.

Try re-reading what I wrote, I can't dummy it down any further.

Finally, a point where we agree......

I didn't ask for any benefit. The point is mindless forces unlike sentient beings, can't plan, design or care about a particular outcome. This is what we observe when mindless forces are given free reign in contrast to the laws of nature which appear to work with clock like regularity.

I know, but I'm a generous guy, and I figure that if somebody tales the time to put their marbles behind this argument you may as well extend a little courtesy - up to a point...maybe they really thought it was cutting edge, you know?

I didn't say it couldn't happen, I asked if in response would you say 'well why wouldn't they spell out such a message?' It was actually a rhetorical question because you'd have be a grade A dimwit to ask such a question if such an incredibly unlikely event occurred.

Which still doesn't answer the question of "why wouldn't they?" Whether or not I'm a grade A idiot or your run of the mill grade d idiot - you still aren't making your own argument.

Still this is an interesting question will an extremely unlikely event occur given enough time and chances to occur. Or more to the point, because something could happen does it mean it will happen? I don't think it can be proven but I would say no. Even though its possible to flip a coin heads 10,000 times in a row does it mean it would happen even if the entire universe was full of coins flipping at the speed of light? I would think even after 13.7 billion years you might get one instance where a coin came up heads 52 times in a row but then tails. But what if 50 billion years from now all of a sudden one of the coins gets on a roll and hits a streak of 1000 heads. After billions of years never getting a streak higher than 52 hits in a row suddenly this coin hits a thousand in a row. My reaction would be to figure out what was wrong with the coin or find some other explanation. I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking it was just an unbelievable stroke of luck or think just because it could happen that means it will happen given enough time and chances.

Why would anything have to be wrong with the coin. If it's well within the parameters of chance and it happens - we're looking at a mystery that is mysteriously lacking in....well....mystery.

Not without the intervention of mind somewhere in the process.

A mind which arose from and is still dependent upon the interaction of "mindless lifeless" yadda yadda.

Its not a hypothetical to me that the universe exists.

Good, good, because that would be an awfully low place to start - we might never get to the end of this.

What I'm debating is whether mindless, lifeless forces

I've already said this more than once, but you keep repeating it like a mantra - it isn't the "lifeless" bit that bothers you. Next time it comes up I'm going to stand on the point of your gods biology and you'll have even more work to do.

without plan or intent caused a universe to exist with the right characteristics to cause something unlike it self,

again - like above - I've already addressed this. You are not "unlike" the universe. End of.

life and mind or whether such came about as the result of plan and design by a Creator. That in a nutshell is the case of theism vs atheism.

A case for which you will, at some point, have to come up with a plan, or a designer. There's no avoiding it.

I'm in luck we live in such a one.

The trouble, is that you havent established that, you just keep repeating it like your casting a damned spell.....