Question about female worth in islam.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

How can you not understand what I'm saying? Yes, I know a lot of muslims will happily quote verses that state "everyone" and ignore those verses in the book that says to treat nonbelievers DIFFERENTLY than believers which is why I ask for one that says all religions are ok. Which you have not provided. If you're wondering, I have had many muslims tell me when the qur'an refers to people, they refer to muslims, unless clearly stated.

So 2x2= 4 , but you're ready to believe if some mathematicians says it can be 5 . You dont need to use your logic or you just dont want to use your logic , because it works for you when you dont use you logic .

Oh please, your qur'an is nowhere near logic, let's not even bring up mathematics. I've already quoted verses to proof my point but you completely missed it, I'll walk you through it.

Ok, I admit that the first verse changes the situation, and when attacked self defence is justified. But you still need to address several issues:

According to wikipedia, fitnah means persecution/testing of one's faith, and that's also the meaning I'm more familiar with. So in other words, kill those who pose a challenge your faith?

Again from wiki: Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎ kāfir, plural كفّار kuffār) is a denigrating Arabic term used in an Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as "unbeliever," "disbeliever," or "infidel." The term refers to a person who rejects God in Islam or who hides, denies, or covers the "Islamic version of truth." The practise of declaring another Muslim as a kafir is takfir.

Again the one I'm more familiar with. Which translation says it means being hostile to muslims? That's also pretty ambiguous, there are muslims who think that saying muhammed isn't a prophet is being hostile. You are saying whoever believes something else other than what you believe to be true should have death as a reward.

And yet you said that people of all religions are equal. How are they equal if they believe a different truth and according to the qur'an, deserve death? Even if you don't believe in initiating the conflict, it's quite clear that they should be treated differently because of their believes.

You should use Arabic dictionaries , especially the old ones , or you can research in Arabic websites . in Quran , Allah calls satan as kafir. Satan knows Allah but still makes hostility and try to drag people in abuse . So here you can easly understand that "kafir" does not mean "non-believer" or "un-believer" .

Please don't use your qur'an to make laws for a language that is absurd. Your qur'an did not create arabic.

How can I look up a word in arabic dictionary if I don't know arabic? This cannot be the tactic you use to win debates, that's really winning on a technicality, and really not winning at all, just a stalemate. Anyways, found this: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.ph...g-of-Kafir

This is a muslim forum, and they're arguing about the meaning of kafir, I guess it's not as clear cut as you like it to be. Apparently a lot of scholars agree that it means nonbelievers.

How can you be someone's friend if you're not their ally and supporter?! Again another verse that explicitly states that nonbelievers are to be treated differently.

what is meant here is to trust people blindly . The word evliaye is used for only very respectable islamic scholars . I have never heard anywhere else . So this is not a simple friendship , much more . Another point is verse does not say "dont be evliaye with them" , it says "dont make them evliaye for yourself" . So dont accept them as idols for yourself . Clearly Allah doesnt want muslims to being away from islamic values and close to the others .

Clearly nonmuslims treated differently. And yet you insist there is equality. Are you really not seeing this?

I think this seals my point. Religion is for your god alone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a kafir. Who according to previous verses, deserve death.

Ok, I found a verse that talks about killing a believer, and it shows clearly how it's different even when the believer is being hostile, they get better treatment:
4:92: It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave. And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood-money must be paid unto his folk and (also) a believing slave must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

It does not say the believer deserves to die. So clearly everything said regarding a hostile nonbeliever is not because they're being hostile, but because they're nonbelievers. Because when it comes to hostile believer, you must set free a believing slave to atone for what you have done. Oh, and note how your people used to keep slaves, again with the human rights issue and equality issue, you cannot have equality if you own slaves.

You dont have an objective perspective . But thanks you for letting me different perspectives which I have never looked at . Verse says a mumin isnt going to kill a mumin . Why you kill a person ? for example he/she want to kill you or another innocent person and such a person cannot be a "mumin". Can you understand what I mean ? Sorry for my english .

I don't have an objective perspective? As if you do?

I have no idea what a mumin is. Looked it up. Believer, why not just say that next time?

It doesn't say a believer isn't going to, it says a believer SHOULD NOT, and if a believer kills one because the other believer is being hostile, they should pay by releasing a believer slave. (I really don't know why you're making me repeat all this)

this is very different from what the qur'an says about hostile nonbelievers, where it practically says if you don't kill them allah will be mad at you. And you were saying that nonbelievers and believers get equal treatment (ok to be fair you said equity, which probably doesn't mean equality like we modern people understand it).

So this verse shows that that is not true and that when the qur'an refers to equality, this is often the idea they refer to, a different standard for muslims and non muslims, as my next example will again proof.

60:10: O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them: Allah knows best as to their Faith: if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them. But pay the Unbelievers what they have spent (on their dower), and there will be no blame on you if ye marry them on payment of their dower to them. But hold not to the guardianship of unbelieving women: ask for what ye have spent on their dowers, and let the (Unbelievers) ask for what they have spent (on the dowers of women who come over to you). Such is the command of Allah: He judges (with justice) between you. And Allah is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.


Again, different treatment for unbelievers compared to believers, this is what the qur'an considers justice. That's what I was trying to say a couple of posts ago, when the qur'an uses words like justice and equity, it has a different meaning than what we take them to mean today.


Oh, and I appreciate the effort you put into this conversation.

Didnt understand what is the problem with verse 60:10 . A women want muslims to accept her and muslims accept her .

DIFFERENT TREATMENT for believers and another set of different treatment for nonbelievers. Again, not equality. And yet the qur'an happily calls it justice.[/quote]