RE: Open debate: What does Jesus teach?
July 20, 2014 at 1:16 am
(This post was last modified: July 20, 2014 at 1:25 am by The Grand Nudger.)
They were hamstrung in that regard (as is the character of jesus whether you imagine him to be fictional or historical). The spiritual authority they claimed originated elsewhere, not with them or flowing from them. It was a borrowed sword. Any criticism of that authority would weaken their own claim. Still, they needed to differentiate themselves, and so we have what amounts to "follow these guys laws...but these guys have perverted their laws - we're bringing it back". Borrowed authority is rarely returned. Basically, jesus out-jews the rabbi's (unless you ask a jew).
@Aractus. While I wouldn't debate your conclusions about the character of jesus invoking the law, I would mention that it hardly matters. That's where the heft of his claim comes from, so of course he sides with the source of his authority. That said, it would take a very dedicated effort not to see how the character and implications of the overall narrative were being greatly "adjusted" with the addition of christ. Had he not come "to fulfill the law" people would have a harder time arguing that it had been "fullfilled" - which is the other side of your debate. I believe your opponents would be leaning on the nature and value of christ's crucifixion with regards to the sacrificial system of the OT. The ultimate meaninglessness of works in the face of faith. You can have one without the other and get a pass (or so he suggests "but through me"), however; it can't be faith that you find yourself lacking. In that very important way jesus himself did what you feel he hated the pharisees for doing. He made an addition, or two....or three. Thing is, that if you're looking to debate this with a christian you might have hard time. They want both sides of this debate to be simultaneously true. They want to see christ as the "ultimate observant jew", the messiah, who came both to give the law of the OT god and ultimately to fulfill it.
@Aractus. While I wouldn't debate your conclusions about the character of jesus invoking the law, I would mention that it hardly matters. That's where the heft of his claim comes from, so of course he sides with the source of his authority. That said, it would take a very dedicated effort not to see how the character and implications of the overall narrative were being greatly "adjusted" with the addition of christ. Had he not come "to fulfill the law" people would have a harder time arguing that it had been "fullfilled" - which is the other side of your debate. I believe your opponents would be leaning on the nature and value of christ's crucifixion with regards to the sacrificial system of the OT. The ultimate meaninglessness of works in the face of faith. You can have one without the other and get a pass (or so he suggests "but through me"), however; it can't be faith that you find yourself lacking. In that very important way jesus himself did what you feel he hated the pharisees for doing. He made an addition, or two....or three. Thing is, that if you're looking to debate this with a christian you might have hard time. They want both sides of this debate to be simultaneously true. They want to see christ as the "ultimate observant jew", the messiah, who came both to give the law of the OT god and ultimately to fulfill it.
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