The Jesus Timeline Continued
So having set the stage with the major players and historical landmarks, we can cross-examine the testi
mony of the four "witnesses" and see if we can put together a coherent timeline of events.
Let's begin with Luke, as his testimony is the one with the most benchmarks to use. First, Luke tells us that Jesus was conceived during the reign of Herod the Great.
So Mary became pregnant by The Holy Spirit during the reign of Herod the Great. Mary then goes to visit Elisabeth who is informed by The Holy Spirit what has happened. Elisabeth confirms for the story that Mary is pregnant and this future child will be Jesus. We've also established that Mary is a resident of the town of Nazareth so that's how Jesus would have been a resident of that town (hold that thought for our cross-examination of Matthew).
Herod the Great died in 4 BCE around March or April so there's our first milestone. Jesus was conceived prior to 4 BCE.
OK, moving on, so Quirinius becomes the governor of Syria in 6 CE. Rome, having secured this province, is interested in the tax revenue it can generate so it conducts a census. Luke references this census as part of the birth of Jesus, as a plot device to get Mary to Bethlehem, since the messiah needs to be born "in the City of David".
This convoluted system of running a census seems most unlikely, particularly requiring a man in one province not yet under the authority of Rome to report to a province under Roman authority simply because he'd been born there but it's necessary to somehow get Mary to Jerusalem in time for the birth so we'll let that go.
So we've established that Jesus would have been born AFTER 6 CE. This would have made Mary's pregnancy with Jesus span at least 10 years. Well, maybe those sons of gods take longer to bake in the oven.
Luke then in the remainder of chapter 2 tells us about Mary's trip to the temple and they run into a few other characters and then she returns home directly to Nazareth.
So if Jesus is part of the triune god, how can Jesus grow strong in spirit, fill with wisdom and attain the grace of himself? Wouldn't he, being part of God, already be as strong in the spirit and full of wisdom as possible? What does it mean to have the "grace of God" if he already IS God? And how does he "increase in ...favour" with himself? Ah well, that's all part of the Trinity madness and right now we're discussing the timeline of events so let that go.
Jesus is baptized by JtB and the other two synoptics (cross-examined later) tell us that Jesus began his ministry after his trip to the Wilderness for 40 days and when he returned, John the Baptist had been put in prison. Luke tells us that Jesus was "about 30" when he began his ministry.
So if Jesus was born during or after 6 CE, he would have been 30 no sooner than 36 CE. However, Luke says "about" 30, so this gives us some wiggle room.
According to John's Gospel (cross-examined later), Jesus' ministry contained at least three separate Passover holidays. This means that Jesus' ministry would need to span 2-3 years, minimum.
Jesus was crucified by Pilate, which would mean the very latest he crucifixion could have happened would have been around the Passover holiday of 36 CE. So if we fudge the age of Jesus a tad and say "about 30" means 28, we can shoe-horn everything into place. It's a tight squeeze but here's what I come up with:
But Jewish custom would have forbidden Jesus to have a ministry before he turned 30. Well, maybe like the eager young recruits of wars, Jesus lied about his age so he could get an early start. Aside from this and Mary's 10 year pregnancy, we've made everything fit.
Apologists will want to push JtB's arrest to 29 CE or earlier but then Jesus is too young to be "about 30" in addition to the fact that JtB doesn't have enough time to start his ministry and there's too long a delay between Aratas' declaration of war and the battle that ensued with Antipas in 36 CE.
Good catch and I will concede that point but it only fits my mapped out scenario. If Philip was dying or otherwise very old and ill, it makes sense for both him and Antipas to worry about the future of their family's kingdom. A marriage to Herodious might have fit with efforts to secure Philips' lands before Philip could pass away. Or maybe Herod Antipas was really in love with Herodius. Either way, it still fits with the year 33 CE, giving JtB enough time to get his ministry going and Aratas enough time to declare war and fight the subsequent battle.
Now, apologists will tie themselves into knots doing various mental gymnastics to push Jesus' birth to before 4 BCE, a decade earlier, but we'll get to that when I deal with the apologetic responses.
Next Witness: Matthew
To be continued...
So having set the stage with the major players and historical landmarks, we can cross-examine the testi
mony of the four "witnesses" and see if we can put together a coherent timeline of events.
Let's begin with Luke, as his testimony is the one with the most benchmarks to use. First, Luke tells us that Jesus was conceived during the reign of Herod the Great.
The Gospel of Luke Wrote:1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, ...
[story of Zacharias and Elisabeth conceiving John the Baptist]
1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
[story of the conception of Jesus in Mary]
1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
So Mary became pregnant by The Holy Spirit during the reign of Herod the Great. Mary then goes to visit Elisabeth who is informed by The Holy Spirit what has happened. Elisabeth confirms for the story that Mary is pregnant and this future child will be Jesus. We've also established that Mary is a resident of the town of Nazareth so that's how Jesus would have been a resident of that town (hold that thought for our cross-examination of Matthew).
Herod the Great died in 4 BCE around March or April so there's our first milestone. Jesus was conceived prior to 4 BCE.
OK, moving on, so Quirinius becomes the governor of Syria in 6 CE. Rome, having secured this province, is interested in the tax revenue it can generate so it conducts a census. Luke references this census as part of the birth of Jesus, as a plot device to get Mary to Bethlehem, since the messiah needs to be born "in the City of David".
Quote:2:1-5 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
This convoluted system of running a census seems most unlikely, particularly requiring a man in one province not yet under the authority of Rome to report to a province under Roman authority simply because he'd been born there but it's necessary to somehow get Mary to Jerusalem in time for the birth so we'll let that go.
So we've established that Jesus would have been born AFTER 6 CE. This would have made Mary's pregnancy with Jesus span at least 10 years. Well, maybe those sons of gods take longer to bake in the oven.
Luke then in the remainder of chapter 2 tells us about Mary's trip to the temple and they run into a few other characters and then she returns home directly to Nazareth.
The Gospel of Luke Wrote:2:39-40 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
So if Jesus is part of the triune god, how can Jesus grow strong in spirit, fill with wisdom and attain the grace of himself? Wouldn't he, being part of God, already be as strong in the spirit and full of wisdom as possible? What does it mean to have the "grace of God" if he already IS God? And how does he "increase in ...favour" with himself? Ah well, that's all part of the Trinity madness and right now we're discussing the timeline of events so let that go.
Jesus is baptized by JtB and the other two synoptics (cross-examined later) tell us that Jesus began his ministry after his trip to the Wilderness for 40 days and when he returned, John the Baptist had been put in prison. Luke tells us that Jesus was "about 30" when he began his ministry.
The Gospel of Luke Wrote:3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age
So if Jesus was born during or after 6 CE, he would have been 30 no sooner than 36 CE. However, Luke says "about" 30, so this gives us some wiggle room.
According to John's Gospel (cross-examined later), Jesus' ministry contained at least three separate Passover holidays. This means that Jesus' ministry would need to span 2-3 years, minimum.
Jesus was crucified by Pilate, which would mean the very latest he crucifixion could have happened would have been around the Passover holiday of 36 CE. So if we fudge the age of Jesus a tad and say "about 30" means 28, we can shoe-horn everything into place. It's a tight squeeze but here's what I come up with:
- Jesus is born in 6 CE during the census of Quirinius.
- Jesus starts his ministry when he's "about 30" (28) in 34 CE.
- Jesus is crucified in 36 CE, just in time for Pilate's recall.
But Jewish custom would have forbidden Jesus to have a ministry before he turned 30. Well, maybe like the eager young recruits of wars, Jesus lied about his age so he could get an early start. Aside from this and Mary's 10 year pregnancy, we've made everything fit.
Apologists will want to push JtB's arrest to 29 CE or earlier but then Jesus is too young to be "about 30" in addition to the fact that JtB doesn't have enough time to start his ministry and there's too long a delay between Aratas' declaration of war and the battle that ensued with Antipas in 36 CE.
SteveII Wrote:Josephus' Jewish Antiquities Book 18, chapter 5, paragraph 4 comment that Herodias "divorced herself from her husband while he was alive" to argue that it took place before Philip's death
Good catch and I will concede that point but it only fits my mapped out scenario. If Philip was dying or otherwise very old and ill, it makes sense for both him and Antipas to worry about the future of their family's kingdom. A marriage to Herodious might have fit with efforts to secure Philips' lands before Philip could pass away. Or maybe Herod Antipas was really in love with Herodius. Either way, it still fits with the year 33 CE, giving JtB enough time to get his ministry going and Aratas enough time to declare war and fight the subsequent battle.
Now, apologists will tie themselves into knots doing various mental gymnastics to push Jesus' birth to before 4 BCE, a decade earlier, but we'll get to that when I deal with the apologetic responses.
Next Witness: Matthew
To be continued...
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist