Open debate: What does Jesus teach?

[DeistPaladin]

@DeistPaladin You think you understand Christianity, but every other sentence you type proves you do not. Do not think that your obvious absorption of mostly nonsense repeated from blogs and fellow atheists has given you any great understanding of what you are railing against?

Actually, I've not just read but WRITTEN some of those blogs.

The "mostly nonsense" comes from reading the Bible cover-to-cover with a critical eye and an attention to detail, where details can be found. I even have a spreadsheet where I plotted out the four Gospels side-by-side.

I've invited Christian apologists to respond and have debated them. The responses invariably are an endless stream of ad hoc excuses and obtuse interpretations for all the "apparent contradictions", absurdities and morally bankrupt parts of the Bible.

"Maybe Quirinius had an earlier governorship. Maybe Luke meant 'before', not 'during' the administration of Quirinius. Maybe Luke meant 'administrator' and not 'governor'. Maybe they still ran a census of Judea in 9 BCE even though it wasn't part of Rome and its citizens weren't Roman. Maybe the census lasted until 5-6 BCE because Herod dragged his heels. Maybe when Luke says Jesus was 'about 30', he meant 37. Maybe... Maybe... Maybe..."

After taking the time to examine the ad hoc excuses tacked on to keep everything together, it turns out they unravel which only prompts a fresh round of ad hocs, and so on, and so on, just like the Parot Sketch.



Eventually, Occam's Razor is invoked and I say, "The simplest explanation is that it's what it looks like," and they conclude my heart is just too hard, that I must look for reasons not to believe the obvious Gospel Truth, because I am desperate for some reason to believe we live in a natural universe

See also Psychological Projection





Psychological projection is a curious thing, isn't it?

Sorry but I read what's there. Skepticism isn't an agenda. It's simply applying consistently the same critical thinking that you and other believers would apply if you were reading someone else's holy scriptures. You know what it means to be a skeptic regarding someone else's religion, as you dismissed Jim Jones and David Koresh dying for their lies as simply the act of crazy people.

When you understand why you reject the religions of others, you understand why I reject yours.

Compare for me the first three centuries of Christianity to the first three centuries of Islam and you tell me which was established with the sword and which was not.

Both were.

Or are you unaware of the Roman persecution of non-Christians, pagans and heterodox Christians? Christianity took hold by the power of the Roman sword, held onto it by the power of a burning stake and spread to the rest of the world by gunpowder. It was only in relatively recent history that the stranglehold of Christianity has finally been broken well enough for intellectuals to question it.

I want to know how Jesus brings down Paul--especially since Jesus predates Paul. If you think there is some sort of conflict between the teachings of the two, state them.

You are surely not this dumb. I said Mark brought Jesus down to earth. Metaphorically speaking, of course. One possible scenario is that Jesus existed as a concept and his life was given first form by Mark who may have even intended it as a parable. As sometimes happens in circulated email "true stories", the parable morphed into a "true story". This might explain why the Docetics thought a man who had lived within the lifetimes of those who would have known him was thought to be a purely spiritual being.

Alternatively, Jesus was one of many doomcriers and messiah-wannabes who got a following before being crucified. As with Elvis, he was later "seen" again. As with Washington and Davy Crockett, fanciful tales and urban legends were spun about him. Decades later, they were written down in contradictory fan fics by different authors. Later generations of a Christian Church smoothed out all the rough edges to make it as good as it is today. Who knows?

No one knows, of course, because we have nothing to go on. That's the point. It isn't my job to fill in the blanks for you. My role as a skeptic, like a defense attorney, is only to point out the flaws in your case.

You keep mentioning killing heretics. If I understand you correctly, this is off topic when we are talking about the historicity of Jesus and what he may or may not have taught.

The heterodox Christians are evidence that if there was a Historical Jesus, he didn't make much clear to his followers.