On Logic and Alternate Universes

[Edwardo Piet]

let's hypothesize about an alternate universe. This universe would have its own logic (1C - ...the formal processes used in thinking and reasoning.) by which beings would reason within this universe, and for the sake of convenience, let's call it "goblygoop". Let's also give goblygoop a new entry: according to goblygoop, 2 + 2 = 5 is actually true. 

That isn't possible because logic is more than its concept. The Law of Identity is true in all universes and 2+2=5 is false in all universes the same way no bachelors are married in any universes and A is not not A in any universes.

Now, the question is, "is goblygoop logical?".

No because it can't exist. Nothing nonexistent can be logical.

Initially it seems like it isn't, because according to 2A goblygoop needs to agree to the rules of 'logic' (our logic in this universe), which it doesn't.

The logical absolutes aren't about universes or the beings in those universes that conceptualize it.

Universes don't have their own logical absolutes. Beings can conceptualize the logical absolutes differently, but the logical absolutes are in all universes because they're, well, absolute.

There is no universe in which A=not A.

You can't evade logical impossibilities by postulating a different universe.

The truth of the law identity I know to an even more profound degree than I know my own existence.... because despite the fact I 100% absolutely know my own existence because "I think therefore I am" I can at least hypotehtically conceive of my own non-existence, in the sense my own existence isn't necessary. It would have been possible for me to not exist despite my knowing that I do exist. However when it comes to the law of identity this is not the case. I can't even conceive of a universe in which the law of identity doesn't exist and neither can you... and it's MORE than that too. Our own imagination is irrelevant. It's not even relevant that we can't conceive of a universe in which the law of identity doesn't exist... the reason we can't conceive of it is that it's not logically possible for it to not be true. Because even if there were a universe hypothetically "without the law of identity" that itself would be that universe's identity, so it's absolutely non-contradictable. Which is why another name for the law of identity is the law of non-contradiciton. There is no possible universe in which it could not be true.

So is the illogical universe you described illogical? Well it's illogical in the sense of not logical because it's not anything because it doesn't exist. COULD it exist? No. If it did exist would it be logical? No because you've already defined it in ways that are logically contradictory ("2+2=5" and the like)

But obviously, that answer is relative to this universe.

No. That's not obvious at all and therein lies your assumption. It does no good to say that your premise is that it's only relevant to its own universe because within your premise itself lies the implicit premise that the law of identity MUST be true and 2+2 MUST be 4. There are no possible senses and no possible universes in which it could be otherwise. Your premise has logical contradictions built into it.

"If there were a universe where 2+2=5" doesn't actually mean anything. You as well have said "sagklsngasglnaskg asgsagoasgoiasg aogijasoigj". It's nonsense. "If there were a universe where our logical laws don't apply".... well, if that includes the law of identity then that entails you basically saying "If there was a universe that was not itself" which, again, it's nonsense, you may as well have said "wiasgasiogasoiga sijioasgjasiogjsaiog joasigjasio"

"But 2 + 2 will always equal 4 no matter what." - no, that is a bare assertion.

Nope.

"2+2=4" means "two things and two things are the same as four things", and because they're the same it means the same as "two things and two things is two things and two things" or "four things is four things". It's the law of identity, ulitmately. All mathematically correct sums and all tautologies are based on it.

There is no sense in which two things and two things are not four things and no sense in which A=not A and no sense in which bachelors are married.

It does no good to say "oh but this universe is different" because if it were different then it would be different, and that itself is the law of identity. It does no good to say "in this universe two things and two things are 5 things" because you're basically saying an amount of things that isn't equal to another amount of things is equal to another amount of things. You're logically contradicting yourself. And you can't say "in this universe logically contradictory things can be true" because that makes no sense. Truth itself at the very least implies non-contradiction. A universe cannot be not itself, that makes no sense.

"in this universe nothing makes any sense"... then what are you actually describing? You may as well have said "saigsahgisahgsaighsai"

2 + 2 didn't have to equal 4 in this universe.

It does equal 4 in every universe. 2+2=4 is the same as 2+2=2+2 or A=A.

The mere roll of the dice made it so.

No lol. 2+2=2+2. A=A. That which is is.

If the mere roll of a dice had made things differently then guess what, the mere roll of the dice would have made things differently... or in other words A=A. Or in other words it couldn't have made things differently because A always=A even when you try and escape it.

Two things and two things and four things is the same thing from two different precepts.

There is no sense in which two things and two things are five things. Five by definition means more than two things and two things. Two things and two things is equal to four things which by definition is less than five things.

"But you're using our logic to prove their logic!" - no, my aim isn't to prove any of their axioms. I'm simply saying that an arbitrary set of axioms can by all accounts be considered "logical", even if that logic won't make sense here. It's all relative to the universe you're in.

There's no such thing as "our logic" and "their logic", there's only logic. The difference is only in how the beings in another universe conceptualize it. Maybe there could be other logical laws but we don't know what you're actually talking about when you say that. But you have listed things that are not possible in any unvierses. It's not possible in any universe for 2+2 to =5 and it's not possible in any universe for the law of identity to be false because even the falseness of it described is an identity itself and therefore its falseness is false and its truth is implied.