Riots in the UK?

[Cerrone]

The "allies" that the students need are the general public...the taxpayers. These are the people that could be said to share a "common enemy" with (i.e. the government). The only problem is, the public want less taxes, and the students want free education. With the government trying to cut spending in order to save the economy, the public know that the two goals are on opposite sides of a pair of scales. If you want free education, you need higher taxes. If you want lower taxes, you'll have to cut spending (and in this case, the cut is education).

As we talked about yesterday, the government may indeed be cutting spending, but they're doing it in the wrong places. While they're funding trillions (and Void im sure if you add the cost of Iraq, Afghanistan and the Trident nuclear program it would be around that mark) on unnessecary weapons programs and unjust wars they could cease and desist that and channel the funds into the public sector, reform it, and then start improve peoples lives. Because right now the only people affected by the public sector cuts are the most vulnerable people, and its an absolute disgrace, and you can be sure that nobody will see their taxes go down because of these spending cuts, so if you think that a few pence out of your taxes makes up for all this shit then you're sadly and selfishly mistaken.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-5367.html

Besides, I'm also sure that when reasonable people are secure in the knowledge that their taxes arent being wasted on ineffective services they couldn't genuinely say that they wouldn't mind adding 50 pence onto their yearly taxes- as long as the money was going into the right places, the problem however, is that so much needs reforming anyway.. but whatever, again, its a subject for anohter time.

The government don't want to anger the public anymore than they already are, so they can't bow to the demands of the students (who, by the way, make up a far smaller percentage of the electorate than the rest of the public).

The students of today are going to be the workers of tomorrow, correct? lol or they will be if they're lucky enough to be able get a job.

So free speech isn't meaningful? Bullshit. Numerous governments have tried to stomp on free speech, and it arguably goes against the interests of those in power.

Yes exactly! It serves a purpose for those in power; as long as every idiot is guaranteed the right to talk shit about their poorly constructed world views then the fraction of a percent of people who have something meaningful to say are ignored. That's where i'm coming from with Aldous Huxley, read it if you havent read it. And it's happening right now, I proposed people take action to help themselves, you- despite agreeing on some points- actively seek to discourage people from taking action- the end result being that nobody will take action, so things remain exactly the same, and i'm sure it'll be repeated all over again with other people at another time.. in other words, it's an endless cylce of supreme futility with the only people benefitting being those already in power.

you chose to ignore my other two examples (which dealt with sexual liberation and animal rights...two other important issues) is very telling though. Did you have a rebuttal to them, or did you ignore them and think I wouldn't notice?

They weren't relevant really, sexual liberation only exists these days to further divide people and prevent unity, and animal rights is a waste of good activists.

I'm in complete agreement; the government needs to change, but the fact remains that your points are completely empty in that I have demonstrated that your assertions are simply untrue; that enough people can change the law and bring about a referendum, and that the people are the ones with all the power.

That may annoy people like you and me, but rather than deny reality like you, and make up ridiculous claims about what the people want, I accept the fact, and hope for change in the future. Just because the masses don't agree with you doesn't mean you aren't wrong, but it doesn't give you the right to make up lies about people in order to convince everyone that you are in the majority, because you clearly aren't.

I'm not making anything up or denying reality, I understand reality but I also understand it's based on perspective. You're right, the people are the ones with all the power, but they don't realise it! The government, police, corporate sector and whatever else is in control but has a very loose grasp on the reigns of the world, and I recgonise that they can easily be brushed aside and that something much better can be constructed in place. The old saying; "life's on unfair", well yeah it is, but does it really have to be?

I'm glad we've reached some common ground though

Okay, maybe you're not big proponent of Orwell. Your comments regarding an ever encrotching government "chipping away" at me made it seem that way.

Lol.. you continue to misunderstand.. ok, the difference between Huxley and Orwell- with Brave New World and 1984, is that both governments are essentially oppressive tyrannies, however 1984 suggests that the ultimate evil state will oppress physically and let their citizens alone mentally, but with Brave New World the ultimate evil state is the one that oppresses their citizens mentally so there is rarely the need to oppress physically. Both government types consistently oppress their citizens, but the more dangerous one- and the one I believe society has become- is the one where people are unable to understand when they're being oppressed or exploited, neither do they care.

Here's a smaller picture demonstrating..


link to the original again
http://dropular.net/content/_fixed/vhhma22blc_zP5fa.jpg

and a link where you can read Brave New World without having to buy anything
http://www.huxley.net/bnw/

Anyone is free to establish a party, the reason there are no new major parties is because most people realise that there is no super group who's going to come fix everything, nor could this fantasy party that you have possibly exist.

Oh sure, anyone can establish a party and anyone in america can one day be president. It never quite works though does it? Anyhow, I wasn't talking about creating a political party, Cromwell had a squad of soldiers, that's all anybody would need, right?

War does cost money, and yes it is largely futile, but was it realistically better than the alternative? It's not so clear. Afghanistan was definitely justified, so there is some necessary cost, possibly the largest portion of the military spending. Iraq is not as justified, it was nice to depose Sadam but the actual total cost is too high.

Some of it certainly, but I still doubt not going to war would have had better long term implications.

Give me a break Void, I thought you were smarter than that. The UK wouldn't be the target of any terrorism or hatred if we weren't supporting America and Israel, that's plainly fucking obvious.

Brainwashed? No, just informed, unlike you.

As I said, I understand the complexities perfectly, I also understand that they're not worth engaging with because they're harmful, wasteful and counter productive both long term and short term to the quality of life of everybody.

Understanding the practises of capitalism and the mechanism of modern government is more than quoting statistics or learning reports, you need to actually UNDERSTAND the implications and intentions rather than just record the data like some mindless serf and construct your opinions based media influence.

I was entirely correct when I said "get some perspective", because if you don't then you're limiting your understanding of absolutely everything.

Not to mention that lowering the deficit and gaining momentum in business will increase the Credit rating for the country, which makes the loans even cheaper. Spending more and more money has the exact opposite approach.

And your ultimate solution is to "Borrow More Money"? How inspirational, inciteful and original Void- not to mention how flawless and certianly not fixated on short term benefit.

And there we have it.