Abstaining from Vaccination should NOT be a right

[The Grand Nudger]

Pathogens don't give a shit whether or not you're educated, and I've heard that educated people sometimes make bad decisions.

[Phil]

Ignore me if I'm an idiot but..

I was thinking more education rather than anything else. If you show people good reasons why vaccines are safe and the risks (seems you cant rely on them to look themselves into it) and they then come to a conclusion on what they do or don't want. That way at least the decision is definitely informed rather than based on rumor and other BS.

Problem is that some people prefer to believe the rumors and bullshit because they think big pharma and the healthcare execs want to make people sick in order to make money. No amount of education is going to help that.

[Nine]

Pathogens don't give a shit whether or not you're educated, and I've heard that educated people sometimes make bad decisions.

But don't people have a right to make bad decisions?

[Shell B]

Um, lol, no. I was ordered to stand in line, just like everyone else, and then stuck in the arm with about 40 needles with nary a word spoken to me about what they were or what they did, and had I refused, I would have been discharged. It's mandatory, not up to my "informed decision" because no information was offered (in the interests of being completely open, there was a line to take a look at papers...which we were ordered to do, in about 5 seconds, before we were ordered into the line, Shell, they don't give a shit), and it didn't matter what I decided either way. You do it, period.

I call bullshit. You may, like so many others, have decided to forego careful perusal of your contract, your deployment papers, etc. However, I am absolutely positive that soldiers are informed of the fact that they will be vaccinated before they enter the military. They are also informed of it in their deployment orders, though they have no right to refuse by then. Yes, you were slammed through a line when you got the shot. Did you ever read the mountain of paperwork handed to you before then?

You'd be surprised what soldiers don't know when they join the army, and how little the army gives a shit if soldiers don't know something.

I wouldn't, actually. What you don't know, you know you are not going to know. You do know that you will be vaccinated.

You'd be hard pressed to find an area where smallpox vaccinations were uncommon, hence the "eradication" bit.

I didn't realize Afghanistan had country-wide access to anything, even water.

Yeah, yeah I was, minus the pool, and before I was ever born.

They gave you the smallpox vaccination in utero? This is getting ridiculous.

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Pathogens don't give a shit whether or not you're educated, and I've heard that educated people sometimes make bad decisions.

But don't people have a right to make bad decisions?

Yes, they do. In so many things.

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I am old so I already have been vaccinated against smallpox, never been in the military but what makes you think I am not in the healthcare industry?

I did not make any such assumption. I merely stated that unless you have had a reason to have a smallpox vaccination, you didn't get one. I have never had one because I am in my twenties and I do not work with or go where there are sick people.

But he did return and was hanging out poolside chit chatting with you and Melanbee, she was vaccinated so not exposed. You got a full blown case of smallpox.

How? He would not have been hanging out poolside until he was debriefed. There is no way he would be sitting next to me shedding the virus, especially if he got his vaccination, which, as a soldier, he did.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, that someone else made for other people. That's not necessarily informed.

The Supreme Court seemed to think that they had enough information on their hands to render a verdict, which has not been overturned.

You'll have to cite an example of this. Not enforcing our policies or even mimicking them was a major setback. Again, in the wiki article you quoted.

Examples of what? Examples of developed nations with a policy called "vaccination" going out and "vaccinating" anyone they could get their hands on? Pretty sure I already have.

Are we? You've been talking about smallpox. The chances of me coming into contact with it are slim, as with many other deadly viruses.

Yes, we have, as an example of why mandatory vaccination is a good policy, and why it works. Just why do you think your chances of coming into contact with it are so slim?

You're arguing from a position of pimping vaccinations, so to speak. I have no problems with vaccinations, only with you making people take them.

I don't make people take them, we do. You know what, while we're on this, you keep using words like "make" or "force" as though I'm advocating strapping people to a chair and sticking a needle in their arm. That's not even close to our policies of compulsory vaccination. I say the very few loopholes we have are garbage in all cases except medical reasons, and that we should enforce these mandates much more harshly. At what point exactly do you figure I'd turn into a guy with a gun and a needle?

The Supreme Court established that the states have a right to establish their own legislation in the matter. The federal government has since recommended that the vaccine stop being administered to the general public. That was during an outbreak of proportions we do not see in the modern world. Don't say that is because of vaccinations because antibiotics, sanitization and travel policies are just as important and two of the three are not enforced on a population-wide basis.

Because we handled the problem (to our satisfaction) by vaccination, among other things. Maybe some policies regarding sanitization and antibiotics should be mandatory, oh snap, they are.

See above.

Sometimes, when I look up, all I see is thin air.....

We're not arguing science, Rhythm. We're arguing whether people should be forced into having something injected into their bodies because someone else said so.

Which is a position that was reached by a healthy dose of science and answered in the affirmative by the Supreme Court.

I have been arguing the issue directly. You have been arguing against an anti-vaxxer who isn't here.

Hmn, The OP says "Abstaining from vaccination should not be a right", I agree, so does the supreme court, you do not. Relative to me Shell, you...are the anti vaxxer...and you are present. I mean point me in the direction of the nearest official anti-vaxxer and I'll re-direct my comments to them, but aren't you playing devils advocate for them here?

I am arguing that. You are arguing that vaccinations are good. Established. Moving on.

I'm arguing that mandatory vaccinations are a good idea because they work, in no small part because vaccination is a good idea.

My apologies. The last one in Europe was in Yugoslavia, though there were several outbreaks in Britain after their mandatory vaccination policy was put in place.

I realize you probably want to reference the single case, as it would help your argument. However, a single case is not an outbreak.

The source of the outbreak?

What was that about developed countries?

Appealing to the exceptions instead of the rule? Sure, why not...lol.

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But don't people have a right to make bad decisions?

Absolutely, but apparently not in this case, since it affects us all, again, as per the Supreme Courts verdict (which I obviously agree with).

[Shell B]

Appealing to the exceptions instead of the rule? Sure, why not...lol.

When you make sweeping statements and tout them as fact, I will damn well appeal to the exception. It sure beats taking, "Every established country forced people to take vaccinations." as fact. Close to true doesn't fucking cut it.

I'll come back for the rest later. I have to work now.

[Nine]

But don't people have a right to make bad decisions?

Absolutely, but apparently not in this case, since it affects us all, again, as per the Supreme Courts verdict (which I obviously agree with).

I'm all for vaccination and would love for everyone one to have it. But I wouldn't feel justified in taking away choice. My main struggle thinking about this is about children. They cant make an informed choice should parents decide or all children be vaccinated?

[Phil]

But don't people have a right to make bad decisions?

Absolutely, but apparently not in this case, since it affects us all, again, as per the Supreme Courts verdict (which I obviously agree with).

I'm all for vaccination and would love for everyone one to have it. But I wouldn't feel justified in taking away choice. My main struggle thinking about this is about children. They cant make an informed choice should parents decide or all children be vaccinated?

How about we vaccinate voluntarily and ship everyone that isn't vaccinated off to an island somewhere and let evolution take it's course.

[The Grand Nudger]

I call bullshit. You may, like so many others, have decided to forego careful perusal of your contract, your deployment papers, etc. However, I am absolutely positive that soldiers are informed of the fact that they will be vaccinated before they enter the military. They are also informed of it in their deployment orders, though they have no right to refuse by then. Yes, you were slammed through a line when you got the shot. Did you ever read the mountain of paperwork handed to you before then?

You call bullshit or you think I should have read the mountains of paperwork? I agree. I should have, but there are plenty of reasons I didn't (and this is exactly the way they like it, hence the hurry hurry hurry, sign it, get in line, and shut the fuck up). It was a bad decision on my part not to read it, but it wasn't an informed decision by any stretch. It was a coerced decision, which really didn't matter at all. Take it or leave it.

I wouldn't, actually. What you don't know, you know you are not going to know. You do know that you will be vaccinated.

No, Shell, I didn't. Why not just say Rhythm you fucking liar? Why would vaccinations even cross my mind when I went to sign up to play GI Joe? I was up to date on all my vaccinations when I joined...how would I know they had more..do you think they advertise that?

I didn't realize Afghanistan had country-wide access to anything, even water.

Wasn't my AO, (and I joined before Afghanistan or 9/11). However....
"Katie Reilly (Honduras 1999-2001) organized and reported on the event, noting that she invited RPCVs Jill Vickers and Jane Stebbins Flower — part of an all-female group that worked to vaccinate against smallpox in Afghanistan from 1969-1971"
"http://www.peacecorpsconnect.org/2010/06/former-volunteers-gather-to-mark-the-anniversary-of-smallpox-eradication/"

They gave you the smallpox vaccination in utero? This is getting ridiculous

It is, because you can't help yourself. Yes Shell, before I was ever born a politician decided that he could and would have me vaccinated. They had the backing of the Supreme Court, all of this happened in 1905....and I'm not turning 108 this year.

How? He would not have been hanging out poolside until he was debriefed. There is no way he would be sitting next to me shedding the virus, especially if he got his vaccination, which, as a soldier, he did.

And yet people do smuggle pathogens into our country undetected. Again, plus one for mandatory vaccination (and in this case, mandatory screening upon return-I did get quarantined btw, I had some weird ass bug in my lungs they never pinned down..interestingly, I wasn't coughing or anything like that, but others were, probably would have escaped detection if I was the only one who caught it).

"Every established country forced people to take vaccinations."

Boy, you put that in quotes. I think you might have played fast and loose with your interpretation on that one. I think I might have said something along the lines of developed nations with compulsory vaccination policies went out into the world vaccinating people (sometimes shadily) on a massive scale, and this was shown to be a successful way of dealing with an infectious disease. But fuck me, maybe I didn't say that at all.

[Nine]

How about we vaccinate voluntarily and ship everyone that isn't vaccinated off to an island somewhere and let evolution take it's course.

As long as its not England?

Damn this conscience of mine.. I would love to agree..