Some stuff in Islam that i don't get

[sharpguy88]

i can assure you that i read tafseers(they are like the meanings and what is meant by the verses) ... in "Al-Dur al manthuur" and "Tafseer al-jalalain": it states a similar meaning to what i said.

it's a pity that i don't have an English version... For (5:82):

You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.

"Al-Dur al manthuur" opens with a hadith from the prophet that says: "Every time a Jew is alone with a Muslim , the Jew kills the muslim" in other hadiths "thinks of killing the muslim".

[KichigaiNeko]

I am generalising again but my opinion is that any THINKING person is opposed to ANYTHING those books put out. The reason being is that they are out dated and have NO RELEVANCE in a pluralistic society the the world is trying to become.

Quite frankly they are only good as fire fodder and hold no interest other than to those of anthropological and archaeological interests. They are certainly no way to live you life by in the world today.

As for your last statement .... I would offer that as evidence that the book you are quoting is of no value as it incites socio-economic-religious hatred.

I see no value in ANY religion in this world today.

[sharpguy88]

Please understand Kichigai that I'm trying to give Muslims evidence from their own sources that that Islam is "Anti-Moralistic" ... I'm not stating that i believe in that stuff, I'm saying that the meaning of the verse is as it seems there's no hidden message around it.

[Rayaan]

Fr0d0, what you said about me is not true because I do take those verses literally. If you still think otherwise, then you should show me where I said that I don't take those verses literally, or at least tell me the reason for thinking that I don't take them literally. Also, even though most of the time I may not give out solid opinions on such issues, I do provide them sometimes, and I have already done that in many posts such as here, here, here, and here, for example, and many others, and whether you think that my opinions are "solid" or not is subjective.

Sharpguy, my understanding of the verses in the Quran which do reprimand the Jews is that they are specific to certain transgressions that the Jews have made in the past in regards to their own religion, so the verses do not apply to ALL Jews. There are many verses about Jews, but a lot of them are referring to events that already took place even before the time of Islam and therefore those specific verses have a historical context behind them. So, that being said, I will now post a few links below so that you can learn more about the issues that you're talking about. The first two articles are about the relation between Muslims and Jews (as well as Christians).

Can Muslims be friends with Jews and Christians?
Is there anti-Semitism in the Quran?

Also, here is a detailed article that explains the verses about the polytheists of Mecca which you briefly mentioned earlier:
What Does Islam Say About "Forcing People in Religion?"

[KichigaiNeko]

Please understand Kichigai that I'm trying to give Muslims evidence from their own sources that that Islam is "Anti-Moralistic" ... I'm not stating that i believe in that stuff, I'm saying that the meaning of the verse is as it seems there's no hidden message around it.

My error.... I understand.

Please call me Kichi

[The Grand Nudger]

Glad to see you in the thread Rayaan, sometimes it gets very repetitive talking about Islam without a muslim present. So, what transgressions do you think the verse sharp is referring to is mentioning? Has Sharp mis-translated the prophet? If not, do you have suspicions of jews when you are alone in a room with them? If so, what did the prophet actually say, or mean to say?

[Minimalist]

Muslims in the west insist that those verses that you state are fact aren't literal.

Facts are rare as virgins in a whorehouse in religious texts, Frods. Even yours.

[fr0d0]

Fr0d0, what you said about me is not true because I do take those verses literally.

I think you got the wrong verses Ray. Are you now saying you agree with the fundamentalist fatherland types?? Coz we both know you've defended that fort quite thoroughly.

[sharpguy88]

Hi Rayaan... I'm glad that you replied :-)

The Quraan is supposed to be a universal book and the word of God in the Muslim point of view... That said, if the verses truly meant some of the Jews, then it is supposed to start with the arabic word "Mina(من)" or among in English as in several verses (i.e: 9:97 and 2:8), but if the Quraan didn't mean all Jews then the word of "God" isn't that accurate for the people to be taken seriously especially in this date and time... certain few shouldn't spoil the whole bunch especially in "God's" point of view.

You know what actions speak louder than words... speaking a few honeyed words to this group and that , then stabbing them from behind is just how politics work. I'm talking about the execution of 600-900 armless Jewish men, true the leaders may have broken some treaties but genocide is a "no no" especially for "the prophet of God"... not only that but the women and children were enslaved. These were common practice for Arabs these day, But if Islam approves of such actions... then Islam is truly an out of date religion.

There was also the expulsion of two whole Jewish tribes just for the actions of a few... i'm talking about hundreds if not thousands.

oh and thanks Kichi :-)

[Rayaan]

No, it doesn't necessarily have to say "mina" (or "among") in every verse to make the point that the Quran is not talking about all Jews. You have to get this information by reading the previous verses as well as the later verses that are found in the same chapter. Interpreting a verse by just looking at the verse itself and ignoring what is written before it and after it is quite likely to give you an improper understanding of the verse. Now, that being said, there are indeed several verses in the Quran which say good things Christians and Jews (who are known as ahl-ul-kitab). For example, the Quran mentions that "among them there are some" who are pious and righteous people, who command what is right and forbid what is wrong, and try to excel each other in acts of charity and goodness. These are amongst the people who are assured that whatever good they will do will not be denied by Allah and that they will be rewarded for their actions.

As for the execution of Jewish tribes, the reason for that was because the Jews had broken the peace treaties that they used to have with the Muslims, i.e. so that the Muslims can defend themselves. There used to be a deal between the Muslims and non-Muslims to not to start a battle as long as they remain peaceful as mentioned in the Quran, which says, "And if they incline towards peace, then incline to it (also), and trust in Allah" ( 8:61). If a non-Muslim tribe did break a treaty, then that's the only time when wars and executions were allowed for the Muslims. And more importantly, the only reason that such wars were allowed was for the purpose of self-defense.

Also, there were many examples of Christians, Jews, and other communities flourishing under Islamic rule without being forced to live as Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad granted autonomy to the Christians and Jews as long as they signed a pact of non-aggression and paid taxes while living in an Islamic state - and in return - they were given their autonomy and a guarantee for safety and security for their lives, money, and honor. You can learn more about this topic in a book titled Jews of Islam, by Bernard Lewis.

Rhythm: You asked me questions that would take me at least a few paragraphs to answer. So, I'm sorry, but I don't have the time right now.

Fr0d0: Feel free to tell me what verses you were talking about, then.
Also, I didn't understand what you meant by me agreeing with the "fundamentalist fatherland types." Sorry, but I didn't even understand the point of your reply.