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The question that shatters faith, forever.
22nd March 2012, 02:59 (This post was last modified: 22nd March 2012 03:02 by mediamogul.)
Post: #81
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
(22nd March 2012 02:49)ChadWooters Wrote:  But did Socrates truly exist?

I must profess agnosticism in the case of both Jesus and Socrates. I do not know.

That said, I do think it is more likely that Socrates existed and did essentially what Plato said than that Jesus existed and did what the gospels said. Even if Socrates did exist most likely Plato did not record his exact words and events but instead the essence of his actions, arguments and teachings. Plato's Socrates is a more plausible story simply in that it much more closely matches the everyday reality that you, I and every other human being lives in. Jesus' reality is wildly variant, it is a world where miracles, demons, spirits, witchcraft and magic exist in the realm of common experience. It is certainly possible he existed but it has certainly not been proven and given the worldview that his life and times were interpreted through I do think it cause considerable doubt for the veracity of their claims.

If it reads like mythology and matches other mythology of the time. It is most likely mythology.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"All thinking men are atheists." -Ernest Hemmingway

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire
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22nd March 2012, 03:32
Post: #82
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
Did Socrates walk on water, turn water into wine, and come back from the fucking dead?

This is a false dichotomy. There are no mythological elements to the life of Socrates.... as opposed to the bullshit "god" of the xtians.
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22nd March 2012, 03:39
Post: #83
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
(22nd March 2012 03:32)Minimalist Wrote:  Did Socrates walk on water, turn water into wine, and come back from the fucking dead?

This is a false dichotomy. There are no mythological elements to the life of Socrates.... as opposed to the bullshit "god" of the xtians.

Also, Plato's philosophy doesn't completely fall apart if Socrates didn't exist. The thoughts are still logically coherent even in their own right.

On the other hand, the Christian cosmology is completely destroyed if Jesus did not exists. At least in terms of the basis of the religion being predicated up the divinity and sacrifice of Jesus for the sins of mankind. Whether the moral teachings stand on their own is another matter altogether. I believe they do not but that is another discussion.
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"All thinking men are atheists." -Ernest Hemmingway

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire
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22nd March 2012, 04:15
Post: #84
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
A good point, M/M.
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22nd March 2012, 04:31 (This post was last modified: 22nd March 2012 04:43 by FallentoReason.)
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
(22nd March 2012 02:49)ChadWooters Wrote:  But did Socrates truly exist?

Socrates never had a thing to do with whether I get to heaven or not, therefore I'm apathetic towards his existence.

Before you mentioned that we have to stay consistent with how we determine whether someone existed based on the evidence we have. This is very true but the way I see it there's a component of probability involved. Let me explain:

We have this Jesus guy. We are told that he was walking around the place in public performing miracles. Almost daily it seems like he had hundreds, if not, thousands following him around. Now.. what is the probability that after all this ruckus He was causing not a single historian deemed it worthy of a mention in their records? I would have thought quite low, but the fact there's nothing isn't saying something about the historians of the time, it's clearly making a statement about the so called facts about Jesus.

Socrates was a smart cookie but he has nowhere near as much importance as the Son of God walking amongst men. How is it that for both we have roughly the same quality of 'evidence'?



Weren't we just discussing one of those before... and how the author ripped off Mark..?
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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22nd March 2012, 05:27
Post: #86
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
(22nd March 2012 01:02)LiberalHearted Wrote:  That is the point if you choose NOT to take responsibility of a thought process. Worship blindly then there is NO respect for thinking individuals. Nor others of different faiths.
So your answer is peer pressure? The reason you can not believe in God is because what "others" (Who could hate God for all you know) would not think highly of you? Forgive me but how foolish is that? That is like not wanting to date someone you love because of what your friends think. Why does your life have to be approved by your peers? why can't you be your own person? (Remember this when you ask about us not being able to do what we want to do)

Quote:There are contradictions in this Bible and it's god; that is worshiped - how is that perfect?
ah.....do not question blah blah blah...Coincidence or a weak explanation for thoughtlessness?
You completely misunderstand. The verse i live by is 1thess 5:21 "Question ALL Things, and hold on to what id Good."

This means do not just question the questionable, question also the foundational. I have answers for people because i too have already asked those questions. I have literally reconstructed every principle apologetic teaching and doctrine and kept what is "good."

Quote:Why, in Leviticus the original 'law's was slavery not abolished?
Because Slavery is not a sin. Slavery sets a paradigm for the believer. One must become a slave to God. To be a proper slave one must understand the concept of slavery. Therefore we must have a biblical example/understanding of what a slave is.

Quote:Omnipotence is a frame of existence of complete power, omnipresent always there (feeling the pain of the slaves down the centuries?) What's missing? Oh Omni percipient able to perceive everything.
That's what this life is. It is pain. We must know and completely have a full understanding of pain to last us an eternity. So we then can understand the true product of sin.

What is worse, 70 years of absolute pain or an eternity separated from God in Agonizing pain because that person fell into sin? If we live a life of "Managed pain" (For we will not be given more than we can bear) we can live an eternity in the expressed will of God with complete contentment because we will know what the fruit of sin is and will not be tempted by it as just about all sentients who were created in the presents of God were.

Quote:Why is that perception thing missing from this all perfect all knowing example of mythology?
you are aware that none of the "omni-"aspects of God are actually in the bible correct? They are simply terms the R/C Church came up with to quickly describe certain aspects of the infinite nature of God. Now because they are a finite term created by finite man, they will fall short when describing an infinite God.

Quote:Respectfully, you can and have the freedom to do what you wish.
With equal respect; We find Freedom because our righteousness is not tied to our deeds or works. Again with respect, You are the slave in the more traditional sense, (and you don't even know it) for you are bound by the laws and consequences of sin. You are forced to live a sinful life, you have no choice but to be outside of the Expressed will of God, and you will be made to account deeds and will have to pay the cost of your actions. You do not have a choice in the matter, and that is a defining characteristic of a slave.

(Another reason to know slavery well, so that you are not fooled into becoming one forever.)

Christians have more freedom in that, when they sin they find forgiveness, and they find reward when they live with in God's expressed will.

Quote:Yet, asking someone to respect you when what you say is disrespectful to a thinking person, why and what makes you different?
I do not understand the question.
Why do you suppose a faithful man does not think?
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22nd March 2012, 05:38
Post: #87
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
Quote:Why do you suppose a faithful man does not think?

It is not encouraged.

""There is on earth among all dangers no more dangerous thing than a richly endowed and adroit reason... Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed."
Martin Luther
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22nd March 2012, 05:39
Post: #88
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
Was wondering - does anybody here believe in miracles occuring today. In my life, sometimes when I pray for sometime to happen, sometimes something happens but I can choose to see it as God working in my life or blow it off as coincidence.

For example, a couple of days ago I was very discouraged about some remarks someone had made to me when I tried to talk to him about God and was also somewhat depressed at reading about the leader of the LRA being a Christian. That day I felt like I should stop trying to help people believe in God altogether, but I prayed for guidance. Ten minutes later I was out walking on a bike path and a Christian friend I had not seen in about one year happened to be there on the bike path - it was very unexpected. He and I spoke and he encouraged me not to give up.

I have experienced other events like this in the course of my life - but what do you think?
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22nd March 2012, 05:51
Post: #89
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
(22nd March 2012 05:27)Drich Wrote:  What is worse, 70 years of absolute pain or an eternity separated from God in Agonizing pain because that person fell into sin? If we live a life of "Managed pain" (For we will not be given more than we can bear) we can live an eternity in the expressed will of God with complete contentment because we will know what the fruit of sin is and will not be tempted by it as just about all sentients who were created in the presents of God were.

How do you explain people who commit suicide because their life got too hard? Or suffer complete mental breakdowns because there's just too much pain to bear? This is one of those throw-away, feel-good phrases that make my blood boil - people quite often get more than they can handle! If you don't believe that, you've led a charmed life.

(22nd March 2012 05:39)rbak923 Wrote:  Was wondering - does anybody here believe in miracles occuring today. In my life, sometimes when I pray for sometime to happen, sometimes something happens but I can choose to see it as God working in my life or blow it off as coincidence.

For example, a couple of days ago I was very discouraged about some remarks someone had made to me when I tried to talk to him about God and was also somewhat depressed at reading about the leader of the LRA being a Christian. That day I felt like I should stop trying to help people believe in God altogether, but I prayed for guidance. Ten minutes later I was out walking on a bike path and a Christian friend I had not seen in about one year happened to be there on the bike path - it was very unexpected. He and I spoke and he encouraged me not to give up.

I have experienced other events like this in the course of my life - but what do you think?

Coincidence.
"No-one who decides that scientific evidence is not for him and that his own experience or the stories of others is the be all and end all of deciding what's true ever has the right to call people searching for reliable, repeatable evidence narrow-minded. That is hypocrisy of the most laughable kind." Derren Brown - Tricks of the Mind.
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22nd March 2012, 05:53 (This post was last modified: 22nd March 2012 05:53 by Minimalist.)
Post: #90
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RE: The question that shatters faith, forever.
Quote:Was wondering - does anybody here believe in miracles occuring today.

No.


Nor, "yesterday."
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