Do you agree with Richard Dawkins?

[AthiestAtheist]

As just another animal, we are not special as theists believe; not created in the image of God. So this is no basis for out treatment of other animals. So, if you believe that it is wrong to cause unnecessary pain and suffering, on what basis would you restrict that consideration to just humans? Our consideration around inflicting pain and suffering must surely consider all those beings capable of feeling pain and suffering.

"Atheism; therefore vegetarianism."

Yeah, I still don't know where you get that from. I am an animal, and I eat meat because my animal instincts (which all animals have) tell me to eat meat.* I don't see their pain as unnecessary, because we need to eat to live. I do consider the feelings of all beings capable of feeling pain, I just don't put their needs above my own. This is why I don't, for example, go around randomly killing animals for no reason.

* That Christian "dominion over the animals" crap is just a cop out. It says outright in Genesis not to eat meat. To this day, I can never understand how Christians rationalize the things they do, but this one comes from an obvious excuse.

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Your own arguments escape self interest precisely how? From where I stand that's all I see.

I used to love eating meat. On moral grounds I chose to abstain. I you are saying that my feeling better about my food choices is a manifestation of self interest fine. That means that all moral acts are just self interest.

Why are you arguing with a leopard and a hyena about what to eat. A wise idea, that is not.

[Zen Badger]

We have always eaten meat, along with everything else that we could fit in our mouths.

Thanks for the insight. Perhaps you covered some other aspects of our evolutionary past in your science class.

Cannibalism was widespread in the past among humans in many parts of the world... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism)

You might also be aware that our ancesters practiced infanticide, sacrificed one another to the gods and impregnated girls at the age of 10 or 11 years old.

Now, if your suggesting we must do what our ancesters did then I would simply ask why?

Now that we can reason, can we not make up our own minds about what is moral?

Do you do just what the other guy does? Can't you think for yourself?

So people that eat meat also murder babies and rape children?

It is not a case of following tradition dipshit.

We as a species have evolved to eat meat, if you have evidence to the contrary please present it.

It is not about morality, it is about reality.

What is immoral is causing unnecessary suffering beforehand.

And even that is only a human perception as no predator in nature gives a fuck if their prey suffers as they kill it.

I eat meat, not only is it a required part of my diet as an omnivore, but I enjoy eating it.

And I would kill an animal for food, not for enjoyment, not for sport, but for my survival,and I would minimise its suffering as I did so.

Just remember, EVERYTHING dies, and everything becomes food for something else.

[Scabby Joe]

I have nothing further to say on this matter to you..

Well, please return your head to the sand.

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And even that is only a human perception as no predator in nature gives a fuck if their prey suffers as they kill it.

So if animals do it, it's OK for us? Surely you can do better than to model your morality on an unreasoning creature? Perhaps not.

I eat meat, not only is it a required part of my diet as an omnivore, but I enjoy eating it.

It's not required.

[Zen Badger]

If it is not, prove it

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Quote:I have nothing further to say on this matter to you..


Well, please return your head to the sand.

THAT was an unnecessary ad hominem you fucking ignoramus.

PS I opted out as it's like trying to communicate with an orangutang.

[Scabby Joe]

PS I opted out as it's like trying to communicate with an orangutang.

LOL. I the argument fails......

[Zen Badger]

PS I opted out as it's like trying to communicate with an orangutang.

LOL. I the argument fails......

So your evidence that humans have not evolved to have meat as part of their diet?

[Scabby Joe]

If it is not, prove it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_%28book%29

[Zen Badger]

If it is not, prove it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_%28book%29

In reply.....

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&...s8abpPi-Kw

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/385/


http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/cance...ina-study/

There are many more.

Although I will agree that too much meat in your diet is a bad thing, too much of anything is bad.

P.s that study does nothing to refute my original point about humanity having evolved to require meat in its diet.

[Jinkies]

It always blows my mind when I see terrible arguments from atheists. I get that not every atheist arrived at atheism by being rational, skeptical, or intelligent in the slightest, but this thread is just ridiculous. Folks, your arguments absolutely blow. Try to exercise your critical thinking skills before spewing idiotic pro-meat bollox. It's okay if you like to kill and eat dudes, but there's no excuse for sounding like a dummo.

We as a species have evolved to eat meat, if you have evidence to the contrary please present it.

[and]

I eat meat, not only is it a required part of my diet as an omnivore, but I enjoy eating it.

People love to get caught up on what our ancestors did for some reason. Whether the consumption of flesh had any impact on our evolution is irrelevant, though. The only direction that discussion can go is toward an argument from tradition, which no one should find convincing in the slightest. I will point out that you're confusing "evolved the capability to eat meat" with "evolved to eat meat." Those are incredibly different statements, and the one you used is very much wrong.

Are you actually serious about humans requiring flesh to survive? Since you seem unfamiliar with the workings of basic human nutrition and are unlikely to educate yourself on the subject (nobody ever does ), simply take a look at any long-term vegan for evidence that your claim is false. You'll find plenty of people who have been vegan for decades and are perfectly healthy.

It is not about morality, it is about reality.

It should be obvious that this discussion is firmly in the realm of morality. All someone needs to do is say, "That's wrong!" and the discussion now includes morality. You could argue that you don't have a moral obligation in regards to killing non-human animals for their flesh, but it's silly to claim the discussion's not about morality at all.

If you do claim you have no moral obligation, an explanation of why would be nice. Please raise your standards of argument for that one, though.

What is immoral is causing unnecessary suffering beforehand.

This claim only works if you already discount the value of non-human animal lives from the start. Apply this claim to humans and see how far it takes you.

And even that is only a human perception as no predator in nature gives a fuck if their prey suffers as they kill it.

Good thing we're human then, amiright? All of our morality is from a human perspective. That does not devalue it in the slightest. You'll find plenty of humans who don't give a fuck if other people suffer as they torture and kill them. I somehow doubt you find that a convincing argument for torture and murder, though. It's foolish to take moral lessons from those most lacking in morality.

And I would kill an animal for food, not for enjoyment, not for sport, but for my survival,and I would minimise its suffering as I did so.

Well welcome to veganhood, then! If you're not killing animals for enjoyment, you quickly find yourself shit out of luck for any reasons to do it at all. You certainly don't need to kill any of them for survival.

Just remember, EVERYTHING dies, and everything becomes food for something else.

Seriously, you know you wouldn't accept an argument this poor in relation to other topics. How can you possibly consider it good enough here?

"Sure I killed and ate Joe, but that fucker was going to die and get eaten by worms anyway. No harm, no foul."

You can do whatever you want to do in life. Eating flesh is legal, so it's not like those wacky vegans can stop you or anything. Just try not to defend your actions with shitty arguments and incredibly poor excuses for logic and reason. "I eat meat because I just don't give a fuck" works fine. Just say that.

Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris agree that there's no ethical justification for eating flesh. But they still eat it. You just don't hear them spouting nonsensical garbage and idiotic arguments about why it's okay. If you don't accept terrible arguments from a theist, why the hell are you throwing terrible arguments at veg*ans?