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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:46 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Technically you could invoke indeterminism in cause (perhaps this knowledge -specifically of future events- is independent of any sort of perception of causality -the omniscient entity "just knows"), but it does require determined events. Confusing eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:54 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Technically you could invoke indeterminism in cause (perhaps this knowledge -specifically of future events- is independent of any sort of perception of causality -the omniscient entity "just knows"), but it does require determined events. Confusing eh?
Nah! To know the future indeterminately would mean that there is a future which would make us the past. If we are the past, then there is no free will as we have already made our choice.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
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Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 5:57 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
We could still be part of the collection of future events (though to an omnsicient creature the words future, present, and past probably wouldn't mean what they do to us). Still though, so long as our actions and "choices" are known before they occur (before being troubling in an indeterminate system, but remember, I'm not talking about indeterminate time, only indeterminate cause), they can't really be called choices, at least not the way we use the word.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 6:01 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 5:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: We could still be part of the collection of future events
True, but then I could make any prediction and in one of the 'futures' it would come true. This would make god's only power to be the ability to follow the future it predicted and ignore the others. 
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 8:17 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:09 pm)idunno Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Precisely, no choosing, despite alternatives. I wasn't aware that my comment was directed at omniscience btw. Thought I was criticizing your (non-omniscient) argument, but whatevs, works just as well for me either way.
This whole discussion has been centered on omniscience and free will o.0
There is choosing contrary to omniscience.
OK looking back I found this small typo that made a world of difference. I meant to say that there is no choosing contrary to free will.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 8:21 pm
No choosing contrary to choosing?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 8:38 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 8:56 pm by idunno.)
 typing is not on my side
there is no choosing contrary to omniscience.
Trying to hang in there guys, but I do think I'm done for the day. I've never faced such rapid fire responses like this, it can get a bit exhausting.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 3, 2012 at 9:18 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 9:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Okay, so, when presented with a or b, you are incapable of choosing a, if the omniscient creature saw you choosing b. Your "choice" becomes b or b -IOW, not a choice. Just going thru the motions. It may seem to you that you have a choice, but the omniscient being can see right through that illusion, now can't they? They aren't forcing you to do anything, you aren't doing anything to begin with. Just a boat adrift in the river of time.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 4, 2012 at 1:28 am
(September 3, 2012 at 3:33 am)idunno Wrote: (September 2, 2012 at 3:10 am)Godschild Wrote: For those who may not have read the other thread, in it I said that the only free will man has is to love God or not to love God, and outside of that all bets are off, simple really if one will search through the scriptures and find out what God says.
I created this thread to show that the dilemma of omniscience and free will is a false one. What do you think of what I've said?
I think you are wrong, go to post #26 and you will see my answer.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: How Free Will and Omniscience Works
September 4, 2012 at 11:26 am
(This post was last modified: September 4, 2012 at 11:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
LOL, Your answer in post 26 is vapid. Again, just in case you bowled over it in righteous certitude, if your fairy knows which way the leaf will turn then we aren't making any choices at all. Cogs being punished or rewarded for being cogs. Have fun spending eternity with that asshole, managing planets or whatever it is you like to imagine you'll be satisfied doing to the ends of eternity. Personally, I've quit jobs without a single regret here on earth when my very human boss was less than a tenth the douche this particular deity is claimed to be. Jeebus is going to have to find some other gear to grind down, I'm not interested.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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