Human Value Nonexistent?

[KichigaiNeko]

Still clinging to the elitist ideals Jeff??

You will never be able to accept that you are just another schmuck like the rest of us will you?

I am not a chipmunk. I can make more of myself by pragmatically understanding my capacities as given to me evolution than ever can a Christian relying on the make belief favors of a nonexistent god. Chips can also make more of themselves than if they were Christians, but not nearly as much as if they were me.

Sorry Chuck, I'm not understand what you are trying to say here.

Other than what I and others have said. It's up to us (individually) to make something of ourselves and our sole purpose for existence is to pass on our DNA...nothing more.

---

I fail to see how this could be depressing, I fail to see just what point the OP is trying to make other than he finds not being one of his deity's "special little diddums" who has special privileges terrifying to the point of causing him to become depressed.

[mralstoner]

Charles Darwin: "Hence it has come to pass that most or all sentinent beings have been developed in such a manner through natural selection, that pleasurable sensations serve as their habitual guides. We see this in the pleasure from exertion, even occasionally from great exertion of the body or mind, -- in the pleasure of our daily meals, and especially in the pleasure derived from sociability and from loving our families. The sum of such pleasures as these, which are habitual or frequently recurrent, give, as I can hardly doubt, to most beings an excess of happiness over misery, although many occasionally suffer much. Such suffering is quite compatible with the belief in Natural Selection, which is not perfect in its action, but tends only to render each species as successful as possible in the battle for life with other species ..."

Most beings have an excess of happiness over misery? That's so "depressing".

[Darkstar]

Human value is far from nonexistant. Yes, there is no objective meaning. Yes, once your physical body goes, it's over. But imagine if heaven and hell existed. Then human value would be zero. When you have an unlimited supply of something, it becomes less valuable. With an infinite supply of life, and an infinite number of people to eventually all exist at once, it would make any individual person that much more insignificant. If heaven were real, and this life was just a passageway to it, who would care what happened? So long as you die (preferably very young, if you are impatient) having accepted Jesus, you are good to go! It's sickening that some people actually think like that when there really is only one shot...

[Angrboda]

The real depressing point of view is the viewpoint that there are and need to be other viewpoints.

There aren't. And Dawkins is correct. And it's not depressing. It's glorious. That everything I am is a result of error and iteration. It makes me cum repeatedly.

[Reasonable_Jeff]

Human value is far from nonexistant. Yes, there is no objective meaning.

Where would value come from? To think that you're life is more valuable than an ant would just to be guilty of speciesism. If there is no objective being to give your life value, then it has no objective value. Any value that you would perceive your life to have would be just an self-deception.

Moreover, the OP quoted Dawkins saying that there exists no good, no evil.

AND ALL OF YOU AGREE WITH THIS?!?!?!?!?!

(the following is from wikipedia on the topic of Nazi Experiments)

Bone, muscle, and nerve transplantation experiments

From about September 1942 to about December 1943 experiments were conducted at the Ravensbrück concentration camp, for the benefit of the German Armed Forces, to study bone, muscle, and nerve regeneration, and bone transplantation from one person to another. Sections of bones, muscles, and nerves were removed from the subjects without use of anesthesia. As a result of these operations, many victims suffered intense agony, mutilation, and permanent disability.

Head injury experiments

In mid-1942 in Baranowicze, occupied Poland, experiments were conducted in a small building behind the private home occupied by Nazi SD Security Service officer, in which "a young boy of eleven or twelve [was] strapped to a chair so he could not move. Above him was a mechanized hammer that every few seconds came down upon his head." The boy was driven insane from the torture.
~~~~~

I also read where pregnant women were used for vivisections.

On atheism, you have no grounds to say that this is wrong. Life simply is....you can do what you wish with it. There's nothing wrong with using other humans for science experiments against their will and at the cost of their lives.

If there is no God, life came from nothing and ends in nothing. Not only do our individual lives end in death, the universe itself will end in a heat death and will go back to being what it was in the beginning...nothing.

Nothing before the Big Bang, nothing afterwards....we're just this drivel in between nothings. Meaningless, purposeless, valueless.

If there is no God what value could your life possible have? Perhaps you could benefit the human race? To what end? All ends in nothingness, it would be a fruitless, pointless endeavor anyway. All acts of humanity are ultimately of no consequence.

A life lived for pure selfish gain would be equal to a life lived selflessly giving to the human race. Both would end in death.

Sacrifice is foolish and selfishness is the only logical perspective to approach life with.

If there is no God, all things are permissible....our world essentially is Auschwitz.

Yes, once your physical body goes, it's over. But imagine if heaven and hell existed. Then human value would be zero. When you have an unlimited supply of something, it becomes less valuable. With an infinite supply of life, and an infinite number of people to eventually all exist at once, it would make any individual person that much more insignificant.

If God exists, then you have value because he ascribes value to you. If God exists then you would have objective value because the objective being gave it to you.

Your argument seems to be addressing extrinsic value, like sand...if there's a ton it's not really valuable.

However, if God exists we have intrinsic value because we are made in His image and those who Jesus died for would have extrinsic value as well because their life would have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, who is Himself God.

If heaven were real, and this life was just a passageway to it, who would care what happened?

God would...and those that wanted to spend eternity with Him would.

So long as you die (preferably very young, if you are impatient) having accepted Jesus, you are good to go!

Preach it!

It's sickening that some people actually think like that when there really is only one shot...

(I added emphasis)
One shot for what? If atheism is true whatever you do with this life is purposeless. One shot for success? To make a difference?

If atheism is true, there is no difference to be made and success is no more meaningful than a life spent sitting on the couch. To think otherwise would be to simply deceive yourself with a noble lie.

[jonb]

If atheism is true, there is no difference to be made and success is no more meaningful than a life spent sitting on the couch. To think otherwise would be to simply deceive yourself with a noble lie.

Yes, and you don't need the 'If'

[Ryantology]

On atheism, you have no grounds to say that this is wrong.

This is the worst and most slanderous horse shit.

As a Christian, you have no grounds to say it is wrong. Worse still, if you accept the Bible as God's inerrant word, you must accept rape, slavery, torture, and genocide as good. Your own God encourages shit like this, when he is not doing it himself. It's all over the OT. You can practically open to any page of it and find an example. If you claim that these acts are wrong, you are implying that you worship an evil god. If you claim that God is good, you are implicitly tolerating all the crimes he is responsible for. As, of course, you certainly do. No amount of apologetic tapdancing can let you escape this fact.

Not bound by such slavish devotion to nonsense like that, the rest of us draw morality largely from our own capacity for empathy... a psychological feature Christian doctrine cares absolutely nothing for. Jesus stole the Golden Rule from people who think like we do.

[Simon Moon]

If atheism is true, there is no difference to be made and success is no more meaningful than a life spent sitting on the couch. To think otherwise would be to simply deceive yourself with a noble lie.

Please, PLEASE stop saying, "If atheism is true"!

You've been here long enough, and it has been explained to you enough times for you to get why this is a meaningless statement.

Now, back to your idiocy...

[Darkstar]

Human value is far from nonexistant. Yes, there is no objective meaning.

Where would value come from? To think that you're life is more valuable than an ant would just to be guilty of speciesism. If there is no objective being to give your life value, then it has no objective value. Any value that you would perceive your life to have would be just an self-deception.

Depends on how you define value. Value is not objective. A pencil has no value when used as a flying machine, nor does an airplane as a writing utensil. We are speciests because ants do not have sentiency.

Moreover, the OP quoted Dawkins saying that there exists no good, no evil.

AND ALL OF YOU AGREE WITH THIS?!?!?!?!?!

(the following is from wikipedia on the topic of Nazi Experiments)

Bone, muscle, and nerve transplantation experiments

From about September 1942 to about December 1943 experiments were conducted at the Ravensbrück concentration camp, for the benefit of the German Armed Forces, to study bone, muscle, and nerve regeneration, and bone transplantation from one person to another. Sections of bones, muscles, and nerves were removed from the subjects without use of anesthesia. As a result of these operations, many victims suffered intense agony, mutilation, and permanent disability.

Head injury experiments

In mid-1942 in Baranowicze, occupied Poland, experiments were conducted in a small building behind the private home occupied by Nazi SD Security Service officer, in which "a young boy of eleven or twelve [was] strapped to a chair so he could not move. Above him was a mechanized hammer that every few seconds came down upon his head." The boy was driven insane from the torture.
~~~~~

I also read where pregnant women were used for vivisections.

First of all, who said we agreed? Secondly, it depends how you define good and evil. The fact that Hitler was a Christian notwithstanding, it is obviously unethical to do those things because they cause great suffering. It is generally best to pick the course of action that results in the least amount of overall suffering.

On atheism, you have no grounds to say that this is wrong. Life simply is....you can do what you wish with it. There's nothing wrong with using other humans for science experiments against their will and at the cost of their lives.

Yes there is. Morals are inbuilt, as they serve an evolutionary advantage. If people killed each other left and right, we would be extinct by now. (And yes, I know of wars, that isn't what I mean)

If there is no God, life came from nothing and ends in nothing. Not only do our individual lives end in death, the universe itself will end in a heat death and will go back to being what it was in the beginning...nothing.

First part, yes. Heat death? I don't think so, I thought it was going to be a freeze.

Nothing before the Big Bang, nothing afterwards....we're just this drivel in between nothings. Meaningless, purposeless, valueless.

We attribute value to ourselves and the world.

If there is no God what value could your life possible have? Perhaps you could benefit the human race? To what end? All ends in nothingness, it would be a fruitless, pointless endeavor anyway. All acts of humanity are ultimately of no consequence.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know if uber-advanced humans could save civilization from impending solar apocolypse, but they might be able to. If there is a god, our only value is as slaves.

A life lived for pure selfish gain would be equal to a life lived selflessly giving to the human race. Both would end in death.

But the legacy that comes after would matter, possibly forever.

Sacrifice is foolish and selfishness is the only logical perspective to approach life with.

Absolute sacrifice, yes. But being selfish will not make you any friends, and , as I have already explained, we have inborn morals that could cause guilt for this. The world isn't that simple.

If there is no God, all things are permissible....our world essentially is Auschwitz.

Well, if that isn't a non-sequiter.
There is no god, therefore earth is a mega-auchwitz.

If God exists, then you have value because he ascribes value to you.

Not much, considering the flood and all of the others he massacred.

If God exists then you would have objective value because the objective being gave it to you.

You subjectively label god's judgement as objective. It is not.

Your argument seems to be addressing extrinsic value, like sand...if there's a ton it's not really valuable.

However, if God exists we have intrinsic value because we are made in His image and those who Jesus died for would have extrinsic value as well because their life would have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, who is Himself God.

What, one molecule of blood apiece? What Jesus did wasn't that spectacular. Considering all of the atrocities you mentioned earlier I though you would know that Jesus didn't sacrifice much compared to them.

If heaven were real, and this life was just a passageway to it, who would care what happened?

God would...and those that wanted to spend eternity with Him would.
[/quote]

Why? Everything is inconsiquential, so long as you accept Jesus.

So long as you die (preferably very young, if you are impatient) having accepted Jesus, you are good to go!

Preach it!

It's sickening that some people actually think like that when there really is only one shot...

(I added emphasis)
One shot for what? If atheism is true whatever you do with this life is purposeless. One shot for success? To make a difference?

Both. Live for yourself and for others. If you refuse to give your life value, it is your own mistake.

If atheism is true, there is no difference to be made and success is no more meaningful than a life spent sitting on the couch. To think otherwise would be to simply deceive yourself with a noble lie.

Meaningful in what way? You could change the world, or you could do it because you want to. Just because there is no creator doesn't mean it is illegal or illogical to refuse to attribute meaning to life.

[Cyberman]

Your arguments depend on an awful lot of ifs, Jeff. The conclusions you draw from them are decidedly dodgy as well. If my grandmother was a man, she would be my granddad. Therefore my grandmother is my granddad. See how that works (or rather, doesn't)?