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This thread reminds me of that famous blues song that was never written:
If god was a pancake then place it on a rabbits head,
If god was a brick then hit it an make it dead,
I say liven isn't a given,
So belief can redefine words,
Magic isn't havin' no time to play around,
Magic is believin' so lay your cobwebs down,
He say belief is gonna come,
Take my brain from me
Seems to me you have to stretch, massage, and distort the meaning of 'god' and 'deity' so much to fit defining the universe as 'god', that all meaning is lost.
Why call the universe 'god' when we already have a perfectly good word for the universe.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Because pantheists have trouble with the concept of identity
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(October 30, 2012 at 11:47 am)Rhythm Wrote: The word "deity" derives from the Latin "dea"-"goddess", and "deus"-"god"[...]
Okay then we'll assume that "god" and "deity" are completely interchangeable then, rather than "deity" being a particular definition of god. It's irrelevant anyway because it doesn't actually change my argument.
Quote:[...]perhaps you just "believe" that the universe exists..and that leads me to ask you why you deigned to call it god in the first place?
I believe that the universe exists. So, if god is the universe I'm a theist. If god isn't the universe I'm an atheist because I don't believe in any other kinds of gods.
Quote:Not if you're calling that thing a god.
I'm not calling "that thing" (the universe in this case) a god. I'm calling god the universe. I just label it as "god" in one case and don't in the other. In both cases I'm simply believing in the universe. My beliefs are identical. So, since my beliefs are identical, and since atheism and theism is a difference of belief, there is no difference between my theism and atheism they're just different labels.
Quote:I think your beliefs are confused.
See above.
Quote:Which is god.
No, I'm not saying the universe is god. I'm saying god is the universe.
Quote:I think that it would make a hell of alot of difference if we were interested in consistency.
There is a difference in the labels but I already admitted to that, there is no difference in the belief and that is what I am saying, and that is what I'm explaining.
Quote:In god....which you believe in, yes?
I believe in god if god means the universe. If god means the universe then I also assume that you believe in god, correct?
Quote:You don't seemed to have removed god in the argument you offered.....
Then I believe you have missed my logic. I have changed the labels but not the definition because the fundamental difference in the definitions have been removed because they're both dependent upon a difference of belief. If there is no difference of belief then there is no difference because that is the fundamental part of the definition required for there to be a difference.
Quote:If all the atheists started defining god as a carrot and professing belief in it they would be theists.
Not if they are believing in the same thing as theists, i.e carrots.
October 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm (This post was last modified: October 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 30, 2012 at 1:04 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote:
Quote:[...]perhaps you just "believe" that the universe exists..and that leads me to ask you why you deigned to call it god in the first place?
I believe that the universe exists. So, if god is the universe I'm a theist. If god isn't the universe I'm an atheist because I don't believe in any other kinds of gods.
Quote:Not if you're calling that thing a god.
I'm not calling "that thing" (the universe in this case) a god. I'm calling god the universe. I just label it as "god" in one case and don't in the other. In both cases I'm simply believing in the universe. My beliefs are identical. So, since my beliefs are identical, and since atheism and theism is a difference of belief, there is no difference between my theism and atheism they're just different labels.
Why call 'god' the universe at all? I just don't understand what the point of doing so is. What does it change, and why does it matter?
(October 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Why call 'god' the universe at all? I just don't understand what the point of doing so is. What does it change, and why does it matter?
Just a lame attempt at anthropomorphization of an inanimate object.
October 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm (This post was last modified: October 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 30, 2012 at 1:13 pm)genkaus Wrote:
(October 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Why call 'god' the universe at all? I just don't understand what the point of doing so is. What does it change, and why does it matter?
Just a lame attempt at anthropomorphization of an inanimate object.
wikipedia Wrote:Pantheism is a word derived from the Greek roots pan (meaning "all") and theos (meaning "God"). It is the belief that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God, or that the Universe (or Nature) is identical with divinity. Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal or anthropomorphic god, but differ in exact interpretation of the term.
Not even that, apparently. Seriously, though, what does it mean?
October 30, 2012 at 1:18 pm (This post was last modified: October 30, 2012 at 1:20 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(October 29, 2012 at 5:34 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: 1. Let's assume that there is one god and it is whatever is the most influential force in the universe.
What is the basis of this assumption?
(October 29, 2012 at 5:34 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: 2. The universe as a whole has more influence than anything else because without it nothing else can exist, because everything is part of it. It is so influential that it necessitates existence itself by definition, assuming that the universe is everything.
I am not sure this leads anywhere except its own anus.
(October 29, 2012 at 5:34 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: 3. Therefore the universe itself as a whole is god.
Why apply additional names with unfortunate cultural baggage for reference to exactly the same thing? "Universe itself is the universe" not good enough?
October 30, 2012 at 1:21 pm (This post was last modified: October 30, 2012 at 1:24 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 30, 2012 at 1:04 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Okay then we'll assume that "god" and "deity" are completely interchangeable then, rather than "deity" being a particular definition of god. It's irrelevant anyway because it doesn't actually change my argument.
I believe that the universe exists. So, if god is the universe I'm a theist. If god isn't the universe I'm an atheist because I don't believe in any other kinds of gods.
We don't have to assume that, they are. So, you don't think that this changes your argument eh? You are a theist if you believe that there is at least one god - regardless of how you describe that god. It doesn't actually matter whether the universe is god, or whether or not god exists, only that you believe in at least one god.
Quote:I'm not calling "that thing" (the universe in this case) a god. I'm calling god the universe. I just label it as "god" in one case and don't in the other. In both cases I'm simply believing in the universe. My beliefs are identical. So, since my beliefs are identical, and since atheism and theism is a difference of belief, there is no difference between my theism and atheism they're just different labels.
The difference would be the presence of at least one god. Not what that god is or how you describe it.
Quote:No, I'm not saying the universe is god. I'm saying god is the universe.
That which we call a rose.....again, it doesn't matter how you describe a god, only that you believe that a god exists. Your god is "the universe" some other guy might point to "that tree over there", another may say "the being described in the holy bible". It is not up to me to define what "god" is to others, but so long as there is a god present....you.... are not.... an atheist.
Quote:There is a difference in the labels but I already admitted to that, there is no difference in the belief and that is what I am saying, and that is what I'm explaining.
There -is- a difference in the belief. Mainly that one believes in a god and the other does not.
Quote:I believe in god if god means the universe. If god means the universe then I also assume that you believe in god, correct?
No, lol. You are free to describe or define the term god however you wish and profess belief in it all day long, I do not believe in god, and I do not call the universe god...so this isn't my problem.
Quote:Then I believe you have missed my logic. I have changed the labels but not the definition
The definition of the words theist and atheist do not hinge on anything other than belief in a god. It's not about what that god is or how it's described.
Quote:because the fundamental difference in the definitions have been removed
You could only do this by removing "god"...which you have not done.
Quote:because they're both dependent upon a difference of belief.
-in at least one god
Quote:If there is no difference of belief then there is no difference because that is the fundamental part of the definition required for there to be a difference.
Which there is, you believe in at l;east one god, I do not.
Quote: Not if they are believing in the same thing as theists, i.e carrots.
What? If someone believes in the same thing as theists they aren't theists? News to me.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
October 30, 2012 at 1:25 pm (This post was last modified: October 30, 2012 at 1:26 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 30, 2012 at 1:10 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Why call 'god' the universe at all? I just don't understand what the point of doing so is. What does it change, and why does it matter?
Well, to quote myself:
(October 29, 2012 at 5:59 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: Some people, in my experience, seem to think that if you change the label, you change the belief. For example, some people think they're not atheists even when they don't believe in a creator of the universe and god is defined that way. My point is it's not about the label, it's about what you actually believe. I can define god as "everything" and become a theist therefore and yet my atheistic beliefs haven't changed whatsoever because I was only ever atheist in the sense that I didn't believe in deities, it has nothing to do with believing in the universe. That was my point in this thread. I can be an atheist and a pantheist even though pantheism is a kind of theism and atheism contradicts theism because I'm an atheist in a different sense to the sense that I'm a theist.
