Question about female worth in islam.

[WinterHold]

Kayenneh, Dee

A person won't understand the punishment until he/she go through rape.
I have watched a video before a weak or so about a british -I think ? - reporter who got raped in Libya. Now that video, I prefer to die before watching it again.

I'm sorry too.. But I think if that woman was still alive she would've killed them herself. I think many raped women agree on that, what I think is uncivilized & brutal, is to allow those monsters to live.

Hey AtlaSS. I look at punishments totally different than you. I don't need to see that snuff-movie or get raped to have my own perspective.

Anyway, I was hoping you were going to answer to this question;

By the way, what's the punishment for women that actually are 'whores' or 'bitches'?

The penalty for sex without legal & official contract which indicates that a marriage has been taken place between the subjects, is dealt with by 100 lashes -either the subject is a man or a woman-.

This of course is also a part of what we call sex control, there is no penalty for being a whore, but there is a penalty for having sex without an official contract.

Indeed I would enjoy justifying that

---

In Islamic culture women are really just meant to stay at home and look after the children. Though the same thing applied to Christian European culture up until just over 100 years ago.

Arabic, you mean.

In Islamic culture, men & women are equal, and nobody was asked to stay home.
In arabic culture, women are inferior, and supposed to stay home.

Zone, the Quran gives many stories about brave women who committed heroic acts, some of them defied lords & kings. Some of them traveled east & west just to serve god, some of them were Queens !!
And we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of these women.

You'll find this verse in the Quran ; page 561 verse 10 :

"God gave in example for the believers, the pharaoh's wife, ..."
verse 11 same page :
"and -the example continues- Mary,daughter of Amran -jesus's mother, I'm just kinda lazy to try to translate her father's name-..."

So, for now mister Zone, my example in this life is a woman a lot of men even today feel ashamed from following the footsteps of women.

Muslims,1400 years ago, were taught that they & women are one, and they should follow their footsteps. Stunning.

You also have the story of Balqees, the Queen of Saba. Now that was a woman, a believer & also a queen ! so obviously islam has no problem in women leading men : )
you'll find the story of this splendid girl in page 428

I don't think you're right on these one, Zone. You should read more about women role in Islam.
Take a look here :

Kayenneh, Dee

A person won't understand the punishment until he/she go through rape.
I have watched a video before a weak or so about a british -I think ? - reporter who got raped in Libya. Now that video, I prefer to die before watching it again.

I'm sorry too.. But I think if that woman was still alive she would've killed them herself. I think many raped women agree on that, what I think is uncivilized & brutal, is to allow those monsters to live.

Hey AtlaSS. I look at punishments totally different than you. I don't need to see that snuff-movie or get raped to have my own perspective.

Anyway, I was hoping you were going to answer to this question;

By the way, what's the punishment for women that actually are 'whores' or 'bitches'?

The penalty for sex without legal & official contract which indicates that a marriage has been taken place between the subjects, is dealt with by 100 lashes -either the subject is a man or a woman-.

This of course is also a part of what we call sex control, there is no penalty for being a whore, but there is a penalty for having sex without an official contract.

Indeed I would enjoy justifying that

---

In Islamic culture women are really just meant to stay at home and look after the children. Though the same thing applied to Christian European culture up until just over 100 years ago.

Arabic, you mean.

In Islamic culture, men & women are equal, and nobody was asked to stay home.
In arabic culture, women are inferior, and supposed to stay home.

Zone, the Quran gives many stories about brave women who committed heroic acts, some of them defied lords & kings. Some of them traveled east & west just to serve god, some of them were Queens !!
And we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of these women.

You'll find this verse in the Quran ; page 561 verse 10 :

"God gave in example for the believers, the pharaoh's wife, ..."
verse 11 same page :
"and -the example continues- Mary,daughter of Amran -jesus's mother, I'm just kinda lazy to try to translate her father's name-..."

So, for now mister Zone, my example in this life is a woman a lot of men even today feel ashamed from following the footsteps of women.

Muslims,1400 years ago, were taught that they & women are one, and they should follow their footsteps. Stunning.

You also have the story of Balqees, the Queen of Saba. Now that was a woman, a believer & also a queen ! so obviously islam has no problem in women leading men : )
you'll find the story of this splendid girl in page 428

I don't think you're right on these one, Zone. You should read more about the role of women in Islam.
Take a look :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Camel

Commanders and leaders
Aisha bint Abu-Bakr

[paulpablo]

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t942625/

Paedophile who groomed victim on Facebook claimed his Muslim upbringing meant 'he didn't know it was illegal to have sex with 13-year-old girl' | Mail Online


Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. [Quran Verse 4:34]


"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Quran 2:282

http://freethoughtnation.com/contributin...women.html

[Zone]

Arabic, you mean.

I think Islam has it's own culture/ethnicity hence why you have Muslims who see themselves as Muslims first and whatever else, say nationality, second. Some Muslims are completely Westernised of course and so part of Western culture which is secular Christian or secular post Christian. So I mean Islamic culture.

In Islamic culture, men & women are equal

It says men are "a degree above women" in the Quran. And the word of two women is equal to one man.

, and nobody was asked to stay home.
In arabic culture, women are inferior, and supposed to stay home.

The situation was exactly the same in Western/European/Christian culture as it was in Arab culture or most other places in the world. Equal rights for women is a compartively recent phenonmenon. Westernised Muslims like yourself agree with it obviously even if your holy book doesn't really if you read it.

Zone, the Quran gives many stories about brave women who committed heroic acts, some of them defied lords & kings. Some of them traveled east & west just to serve god, some of them were Queens !!
And we are supposed to follow in the footsteps of these women.

Same goes for the Christian world as well, you have Joan of Arc there for instance, Queen Elitzabeth. But in general they weren't considered equal, they were like your property or children you have to look after. Rule of thumb is an English expression which originally meant that you should avoid beating your wife with an object wider than your own thumb.

[WinterHold]

I think Islam has it's own culture/ethnicity hence why you have Muslims who see themselves as Muslims first and whatever else, say nationality, second. Some Muslims are completely Westernised of course and so part of Western culture which is secular Christian or secular post Christian. So I mean Islamic culture.

It is true. But not like it's a nationality, it's a unity in thought ; not customs & traditions. I dare you to spot me as a Muslim in public :p

It says men are "a degree above women" in the Quran. And the word of two women is equal to one man.

In marriage. Due to the categorizations of obligations in marriage, men are supposed to pay for everything -literally-. In the same time they don't have the right to take any money from their mates without previously asking for it.

This is a very tough obligation, zone, Islam actually gives women the right not to pay a penny for the family.

That's why men -in marriage- are one degree above women (like god stated next) with what they payed -men-.

So a husband who doesn't pay is not above women. Matter in fact, a single mother is better than all men.

The situation was exactly the same in Western/European/Christian culture as it was in Arab culture or most other places in the world. Equal rights for women is a compartively recent phenonmenon. Westernised Muslims like yourself agree with it obviously even if your holy book doesn't really if you read it.

mm, good point.
But I don't think it's that bad in Islam. During the first Islamic century -the generation of Mohammed-, women were fighting, telling their opinions in public and some of them kicked were screaming in their husbands. Women during that time used the same mosques as men.

I didn't notice any decline in women rights until the end of the caliphates. It is by then, when crazy religious statements were thrown against women -they even forbid women from praying in the same mosques as men without "a wall" between them..

This verse proves equality between men & women :
"He is the one who created you from one soul, then made its pair from it".

Same goes for the Christian world as well, you have Joan of Arc there for instance, Queen Elitzabeth. But in general they weren't considered equal, they were like your property or children you have to look after. Rule of thumb is an English expression which originally meant that you should avoid beating your wife with an object wider than your own thumb.

That's weird, I remember using that in school in something related to physics or something ?? I can't remember exactly but a thumb was included with "a rule" xD

[Zone]

It is true. But not like it's a nationality, it's a unity in thought ; not customs & traditions.

Islam copied the customs and traditions of the Jews, and added a few extra. You may think they're commandents of God/Allah but as far as I'm concerned it's human made cultural tradition, because that's what they are.

I dare you to spot me as a Muslim in public :p

I would spot you by your beard and the gleam in your eye, your general cut. If you were a woman with a covered head or face it would be slightly easier.

In marriage. Due to the categorizations of obligations in marriage, men are supposed to pay for everything -literally-. In the same time they don't have the right to take any money from their mates without previously asking for it.

And all Muslim women have to married off, at an early age. Then they generally rear the children at home, under the authority of the man. You know it to be true.

This is a very tough obligation, zone, Islam actually gives women the right not to pay a penny for the family.

But they're not really meant to bring money into the household that's the point. They're in the home. If they go out they have to cover themselves up to avoid being "uncovered meat".

That's why men -in marriage- are one degree above women (like god stated next) with what they payed -men-.

In marriage, legal rights and everything else.

So a husband who doesn't pay is not above women. Matter in fact, a single mother is better than all men.

It wouldn't typically be a single Muslim woman, they will get married off to a man to do his cooking and cleaning. That's just how it goes they're not normally fully independent or equal to men. Again the Western world was more or the same up until about 100 years ago.

mm, good point.
But I don't think it's that bad in Islam. During the first Islamic century -the generation of Mohammed-, women were fighting, telling their opinions in public and some of them kicked were screaming in their husbands. Women during that time used the same mosques as men.

While it may have been progressive for the 7th century it's a bit of stretch to say that Islam founded womens lib. That's a product of Western mainly secular culture with some Christian roots. Women did have to fight for and win these rights they weren't given anything. They won the vote after the role they played working in ammunition factories during WW1 while the men were slowly walking into machine gun fire. Muslim women can vote as well these days but it didn't originate from the Islam or the Quran.

I didn't notice any decline in women rights until the end of the caliphates. It is by then, when crazy religious statements were thrown against women -they even forbid women from praying in the same mosques as men without "a wall" between them..

Women were always allowed in the same church you know, the Catholic Church even had a divine goddess like figure in the Virgin Mary, there are numerous female Saints as well of course.

This verse proves equality between men & women :
"He is the one who created you from one soul, then made its pair from it".

A rehash of the Jewish creation myth which explains the origins of men and women. But it's not saying they're equal or at least that they ought to fill the same general role in society. You're going to have to be a stretch for that.

That's weird, I remember using that in school in something related to physics or something ?? I can't remember exactly but a thumb was included with "a rule" xD

Ah but did you know the Quran instructs men to beat disobeidient wives? Though it is after you admonish them and sleep in a separate bed. The beating is a last resort if they continue to disobey.

[WinterHold]

Islam copied the customs and traditions of the Jews, and added a few extra. You may think they're commandents of God/Allah but as far as I'm concerned it's human made cultural tradition, because that's what they are.

I understood the traditions here as "types of worship & identity".
About the types of worship, there is a similarity because both religions are Abrahamic ; both came from god once. I agree with you on the similarity ; which makes you wonder if Mohammed copied them.

But of course it wouldn't make sense if you don't believe in Abraham : )

The identity is what I think the most important, and different. If you like to, I can tell you the differences one by one. They're huge & numerous. But there is a similarity in the types of worship, that's why many scholars -like Ahmed Dedat- said it loud & clear : Jews are almost muslims with a different label.

I would spot you by your beard and the gleam in your eye, your general cut. If you were a woman with a covered head or face it would be slightly easier.

Gleam ?
I don't have a beard.

And all Muslim women have to married off, at an early age. Then they generally rear the children at home, under the authority of the man. You know it to be true.

Not necessarily, it depends on the culture of the country. There is no authority in the first place. You might ask about the verse which proves that :

"And those who answer the call of their god, raised the prayers and they consult each other on all their affairs, and they pay -money- from what we have gave them"
Sura 42, verse 38

Given the fact that this is an obligation on any muslim to consult before taking a decision ; it is also required in marriage.
Who takes the final decision ? None actually ; it's more like voting.

But they're not really meant to bring money into the household that's the point. They're in the home. If they go out they have to cover themselves up to avoid being "uncovered meat".

Also not right. A muslim woman has the same obligations as men, they must pray, fast & worship god.

Many worships require getting out of the house. Paying for the poor -which is a pillar in Islam- is just an example ; how would the girl find the poor if she's always at home ? How would she see god's creation inside her home ? how would she go to the mosque in the first place ?

You know that we have 5 prayers, right ? also women are required to do them ; actually it's forbidden to stop them from going to mosques. A Muslim who does that would probably end up in hell.

You're confused between what "the hadith" says about women, and what the Quran says.

In marriage, legal rights and everything else.

After life. That degree is in the after life, not now. This verse states what is the case in this life :

"... And they-women-receive the same deeds that they give, and men are above them with one degree"
Sura 1, verse 228

How would they receive the same deeds that they give, but men are above them ? if men were above them then the deeds would be different ; to man's side.

In the after life, men get a better penalty for what they payed for their wives. Obviously ; Women are also above men with one-or many- degrees when it comes to motherhood : )

You know, saying "humph" to your mom in Islam is forbidden, just to see the real value of women to us.

It's all equal. But sticking to one verse without reading the whole thing would sure give you weird ideas.

It wouldn't typically be a single Muslim woman, they will get married off to a man to do his cooking and cleaning. That's just how it goes they're not normally fully independent or equal to men. Again the Western world was more or the same up until about 100 years ago.

My mother disagrees..

While it may have been progressive for the 7th century it's a bit of stretch to say that Islam founded womens lib. That's a product of Western mainly secular culture with some Christian roots. Women did have to fight for and win these rights they weren't given anything. They won the vote after the role they played working in ammunition factories during WW1 while the men were slowly walking into machine gun fire. Muslim women can vote as well these days but it didn't originate from the Islam or the Quran.

I can't give you a final word on this ; I need to search more about this matter in Islamic history.

Women were always allowed in the same church you know, the Catholic Church even had a divine goddess like figure in the Virgin Mary, there are numerous female Saints as well of course.

On reality the situation was different. Those saints were given as an example of "total obedience to men".

A rehash of the Jewish creation myth which explains the origins of men and women. But it's not saying they're equal or at least that they ought to fill the same general role in society. You're going to have to be a stretch for that.

umm, another verses support this idea :
"I -God- don't waste the work of any worker, male or female..."

Ah but did you know the Quran instructs men to beat disobeidient wives? Though it is after you admonish them and sleep in a separate bed. The beating is a last resort if they continue to disobey.

Yeah that verse is there. Until this day scholars are jumping around it without the attempt to give a concrete answer about what it means.

If I knew its meaning I would come back to you. But there is another verse which also states that beating men is okay if they committed sex with another woman while married. I will get that verse soon.

[paulpablo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk

[PyroManiac]

Umm...Not my strong religion.

[SiRade]

Ok, I saw some serious cherry picking going on in this topic so I decided to register Someone IMPLIED that after rape raper is punished, but the truth is that (usually) the victim is the one who is punished for "crime". Just google it, is it that difficult? I mean, we have 15 years old girl in Maldives who was rapped by her father and is facing 100 lashes. we have muslim preachers who OPENLY say rape victims are responsible, we have a so-called rape jihad sweeping throuth Europe.

[Ucaslog1]

I'm an ex Muslim and I can tell you, women in islam are treated with the same respect as a piece of shit on the sidewalk, they are only wanted for sex, and household chores, as well as bearing the 10+ children, if they don't want to give birth to that many, then the husband will get a second wife. So I think she is saying women are worth half as much as men, I was taught the same.

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Ad what SiRade said is true. If a woman is raped, then it is her fault for being so desirable and she should be punished. I find this way of thinking to be disgraceful and disgusting. I say women should wear what they want, it is the mans fault if he cannot control himself. And they say you need religion to have morals.......