If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?

[fr0d0]

Why do people put down dogs who attack people? Yes it's a natural reflex for a dog, and you might say it's what it's biologically programmes to do. In our analogy we had to assume the dog had the ability to fully control itself and make a moral choice.

So Missy C is a mass murderer. Fate put a little girl, Missy Cs favourite victim in Missy Cs path. Missy C does as Missy C did before.

So you are saying that fate is at fault for putting the little girl into that place. Fate could have put her somewhere else and her life might play out reflecting justice for her actions.

What religion does is reflect reality. There is no point in addressing a fantasy reality after all.
Your solution to the problem of evil is an unworkable fantasy. Or a fantasy where love and hate can't exist. I prefer Gods reality, this one, where love is an option, and not a life of brain death.

[Mystical]

Then lets go back to when your god supposedly created all that is good. Apparently it was possible for adam and eve to li ve with the animals on earth and all was hunkie dorie. But that tree, man. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge which he put right there and forbade those two beings to eat from. He gave them curiousity and he put a tree there knowing they'd eat it. In my eyes he set them up to fail and then punished them for doing what he wanted in the first place. He already had adam who went on long walks with him and loved him, god had love in Adam without needing to give him the ability to hate. And what about the tree of life? He had the ability to give us a good life without pain or suffering or death. Even if we ate the knowledge, he didn't have to give us lives of suffering pain and toil. Those didn't come with the fruit, they came with gods decree and banishment. So pretty much god gave the dog two bones said don't eat the one then kicks the dog out on the street in the rain for eating the bone he put there knowing the dog wouldn't be able to resist.

Also frodo I don't get why you believe one must absolutely have the ability to both love and hate in order to love, when adam had one without the other?

[The Grand Nudger]

Your solution to the problem of evil is an unworkable fantasy. Or a fantasy where love and hate can't exist. I prefer Gods reality, this one, where love is an option, and not a life of brain death.

Unworkable? That's not something one is likely to see applied to some option a god might have. What else would be "unworkable" for your god Frodo? Lets make ourselves a list?

[Faith No More]

The reason you love your dog is that it shows it's love for you. As a loving person, you need love reciprocated.

Absolutely not. Love is affection towards someone despite how they feel about you.

And on the topic of reciprocation, why is it that an omniscient, omnipotent entity that lives outside of time and space has the desire to be loved in the first place? Why is it that a god containing all of the knowledge in the cosmos is driven by such human desires?

[Mystical]

You refer to fate, Fr0d0. What do you think fate is? In reference to atheism?

[fr0d0]

Your first response doesn't address my points at all Missy C. The Adam and Eve story explains the human condition. It's the same subject I would agree. You seem to want to lay off everything, especially responsibility for human choices into God. God only set up what I've explained is a scenario where love is possible: a scenario where hate has to also be a choice. I can't think of any scenario where love is the point that hate doesn't also have to exist.

Fate is the natural world, natural forces, this physical reality where nature is indescriminate.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't see much of an explanation for the human condition in the tale. What condition might that be and how does it go about offering such an "explanation"? Are you confident with the implication that your inability to imagine some scenario speaks to a gods ability to have engineered it? Should we put that on the list? Let's see what it looks like......

-Unworkable Things For A God-
1). Things which Frodo is incapable of imagining.

Seems legit.

[fr0d0]

The reason you love your dog is that it shows it's love for you. As a loving person, you need love reciprocated.

Absolutely not. Love is affection towards someone despite how they feel about you.

And on the topic of reciprocation, why is it that an omniscient, omnipotent entity that lives outside of time and space has the desire to be loved in the first place? Why is it that a god containing all of the knowledge in the cosmos is driven by such human desires?

The human needs love, was my point. I know what love is. I understand God to be love. God loves you without that love being reciprocated, for example.
I think it's interesting that this is seen as Gods central purpose. His point in creating us was to replicate himself. Love produces love. Love is the most powerful force.

---

I don't see much of an explanation for the human condition in the tale. What condition might that be and how does it go about offering such an "explanation"?

It's a pretty universal explanation. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it.

I've heard many fantastical and illogical propositions for an alternate reality. How do you propose a new natural order with conflicting physics to our own. Seems like a pretty impossible task. And, the basic point we're addressing here is the existence of love without the freedom to love. I'm claiming that this is the only workable scenario. If you'd like to challenge that I would love to hear it. I certainly don't discount the possibility. Just lack the supporting argument.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nope, haven't heard of it, care to elaborate?


I don't have to propose anything at all, and I'm not sure that the model of probability actually applies to a god - why would it? It's based upon our reality, our world, our laws..all things which we assume do not have any sort of primacy or hold over this god character. In any case, whether or not somethings seems impossible to you or I is fairly inconsequential, the operative here is what you would feel comfortable in concluding was impossible -for your god-. That you seem to feel that -your imagination- is a sort of dowsing rod for determining this, well...that's beyond the pale bud.

I'm claiming that this is the only workable scenario.

Then shouldn't you be getting to work on that, rather than asking for other people to imagine alternate realities? You only have to imagine one - a reality in which this claim is true. I'm calling bullshit right out of the gate.

[fr0d0]

You claim bullshit before you know what we're talking about.

We're not talking about God or any god, we're taking about the possibility of any other reality existing where love didn't have to have a logical counterpart to make it viable. My claim is that this isn't possible. You are welcome to demonstrate otherwise.

I don't care to elaborate. Go use that thing between your ears.