A Mormon doubts

[Something completely different]

A nice short doc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGVb8TjoY4

[CapnAwesome]

It is almost impossible to believe the claims that the mormon's put forth in the modern age. At it's heart the mormon leadership knows this, they hardly convert anyone despite massive efforts. The only reason they are a growing church is because of crazy high birth rates amongst mormons.

[CleanShavenJesus]

I read the title as "A Mormon donut" and was much more interested than I am now.

[Bad Writer]

People like him are coming out of the woodwork more often nowadays. Too bad some other Christian organization will probably come swooping in on him to try and bring him into their fold. What a way to treat a person during such a vulnerable time!

[gall]

It is almost impossible to believe the claims that the mormon's put forth in the modern age. At it's heart the mormon leadership knows this, they hardly convert anyone despite massive efforts. The only reason they are a growing church is because of crazy high birth rates amongst mormons.

Why would anyone believe what two strangers dressed rather oddly for daytime on the street showing up at your door uninvited have to say???

You cannot convert people to your religion using 1950's style hair brush sales tatics. Oh and the part about the doctrine being totally daft helps them a lot.

[Sword of Christ]

People like him are coming out of the woodwork more often nowadays. Too bad some other Christian organization will probably come swooping in on him to try and bring him into their fold. What a way to treat a person during such a vulnerable time!

I'm not really altogether sure if Mormons are Christians as the Book of Mormon deviates more fully from the Bible than does the Quran. The big thing is that Mormon is polytheist and God is only the God of Earth not the universe, he lives on the planet Kolob and he was once a mortal man like ourselves.

[Bad Writer]

I think it's about time for PeterPriesthood to come back out of the woodwork. We'll have to wait until I'm on a proper computer console for this.

[Minimalist]

I'm not really altogether sure if Mormons are Christians as the Book of Mormon deviates more fully from the Bible than does the Quran.

But you don't get to decide. Xtian is not an honorable title. Any asshole who wants it is welcome to it.

[Bad Writer]

Time to bring my alter-ego in for this one.

:Channels PeterPriesthood:

Who are not Christians? Mormons? How do you figure this, Mr. Sword?

I'm not really altogether sure if Mormons are Christians as the Book of Mormon deviates more fully from the Bible than does the Quran.

The Book of Mormon, in case you hadn't noticed, is another Testament of Jesus Christ, whereas the Quran makes no such claim. Not only does it uphold the writings of the Old and New Testaments in the Bible, but it clarifies and explains the teachings of these old books much better than its 2000 year-old counterpart ever could. To say that the Book of Mormon is not a Christian text is like saying that the Hadiths of Islam are not in accordance with the Quran. Glad I could straighten that out for you.

The big thing is that Mormon is polytheist and God is only the God of Earth not the universe, he lives on the planet Kolob and he was once a mortal man like ourselves.

Again, you misunderstand the Mormon position. I'm not surprised though, for you've probably been indoctrinated to say this whenever confronted with the view Mormons take on Theism.

While there is the acknowledgement of other gods, Mormonism is very Monotheistic. By the same token that you guys have three gods in one (the Trinity), the LDS Church adheres to the notion that there is a Godhead. Three gods in one purpose. Therefore, when one recognizes Jesus Christ as being the Holy One of Israel, that is, Jehovah, the fact that the Prophets of the Old Testament worshiped him only means that they were, through him, worshiping God the Father. This may sound convoluted, but I assure you this makes much more sense than putting three gods into one body. Being one in purpose is much more manageable when it comes to comprehending a perfect God.

So when a Mormon prays, it is not to Jesus, but to God the Father, as he is the spiritual father of all mankind. We worship Him, Elohim, as the Creator of all things, and Jesus is the Redeemer of all mankind, also being elevated to godhood, for he is divine.

Though a man can be exalted to godhood, all of Heavenly Father's children do not worship these other gods, for they can only worship their creator.

God also did not just create Earth, as you claim, but the entire Universe. Any Mormon will tell you this, and any information to the contrary will be shot down immediately as false. Just because God lives near Kolob (not a planet, but a solar system) does not mean that is his planet of origin. That place is his throne. Jesus will one day become a God father like his own father, and create his own universe, after which his own begotten son will act as a Redeemer for his own spirit children. This is an eternal cycle that has been repeated from eternity to eternity.

If Mormons are not Christians, then what are they? They accept Christ as their only Redeemer...how then is there some kind of requirement that there not be any other gods? You are sadly confused, but I, PeterPriesthood, can answer any remaining questions you may have so that I can clarify the Mormon Position.

:End Channeling of PeterPriesthood:

Why are your false notions any more correct than the false notions of Mormons? Both Christian stances smell of shit.

[Sword of Christ]

But you don't get to decide. Xtian is not an honorable title. Any asshole who wants it is welcome to it.

A Christian is someone who adheres at least roughly to the Nicene Creed, by rejecting the God who is the creator of all things seen and unseen and introducing polytheism Mormons are way way way outside the doctrine. There is some flexibility but not to anything like that degree. If you want to be in a club you to abide with at least some of the rules and standards the club follows. Mormons essentially have their own club whatever they want to call it. If they're Christians then so are Jews, Muslims and atheists.

Who are not Christians? Mormons? How do you figure this, Mr. Sword?

Nicene Creeeed.

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen. "


You see it's already been long established what Christianity is meant to be. There are parts of it that I myself would be a little ropy on these are the guideposts. Mormonism is way outside these guideposts and can't really be considered to be a Christian religion regardless of how much they go on about Jesus. They regard the other Churches as an abomination to God anyway (the one who lives on Kolob with his thousands of wives). But I have no objection if someone wants to follow that faith, even though would point out to them how we know it's wrong. If Native Americans were Jews there would be DNA evidence. If they used steel swords we would have archaeological evidence and so on.

The Book of Mormon, in case you hadn't noticed, is another Testament of Jesus Christ

An entirely alternative one that has nothing much to do with the Jesus of the Bible. God did not come from outer space to have sex with the virgin Mary to provide his son with a physical body on Earth. There concept of God is something like Zeus that's not God.

, whereas the Quran makes no such claim. Not only does it uphold the writings of the Old and New Testaments in the Bible, but it clarifies and explains the teachings of these old books much better than its 2000 year-old counterpart ever could. To say that the Book of Mormon is not a Christian text is like saying that the Hadiths of Islam are not in accordance with the Quran. Glad I could straighten that out for you.

Well it rips sections straight out of the King James Bible. But that doesn't automatically make it Christian. It's Christian if it adheres to Christian theology and doctrine which it does not. It is a new religion based on Christianity not a Christian religion.

Again, you misunderstand the Mormon position. I'm not surprised though, for you've probably been indoctrinated to say this whenever confronted with the view Mormons take on Theism.

Mormons won't tell you all this unless they are pressed but this is what they actually believe.

While there is the acknowledgement of other gods, Mormonism is very Monotheistic. By the same token that you guys have three gods in one (the Trinity), the LDS Church adheres to the notion that there is a Godhead. Three gods in one purpose.

There are many thousands/millions of Gods in Mormonism each has their own planet to rule in space. If you die baptized as a Mormon you yourself will become a God with your own planet. The Holy Spirit is some kind of non-physical force but God is a man called Elohim and he fathered Jesus biologically through sex with Mary. This doctrine did develop as Joesph Smith progressed, initially he may have been closer to the Christian Trinity and the remains of this are in the Book of Mormon. As for the creation of the physical universe Mormons generally share your belief that it is an eternal physical natural order.

Therefore, when one recognizes Jesus Christ as being the Holy One of Israel, that is, Jehovah, the fact that the Prophets of the Old Testament worshiped him only means that they were, through him, worshiping God the Father. This may sound convoluted, but I assure you this makes much more sense than putting three gods into one body. Being one in purpose is much more manageable when it comes to comprehending a perfect God.

God doesn't even have a body, well Jesus had one sure. There is only ONE God not three, see the Nicene Creed above. Mormons do not follow this creed even a little bit it's way off tangent. It's an entirely new religion not a Christian denomination or sect.

So when a Mormon prays, it is not to Jesus, but to God the Father, as he is the spiritual father of all mankind. We worship Him, Elohim, as the Creator of all things, and Jesus is the Redeemer of all mankind, also being elevated to godhood, for he is divine.

Christians pray to God Jesus happened to be God, the Trinity is all one God. Again see the Nicene Creed above.

Though a man can be exalted to godhood, all of Heavenly Father's children do not worship these other gods, for they can only worship their creator.

Elohim is the only one true God of Earth and humanity. Other planets will have their own God ruling over them in Mormonism. This is polytheism.

God also did not just create Earth, as you claim, but the entire Universe.

No-one created the universe in Mormonism, matter is supposed to be eternal. Again this is pure polytheism. The exact same thing as the Norse gods or whatever but based on the Bible.

Any Mormon will tell you this, and any information to the contrary will be shot down immediately as false.

Well they're not telling you everything.

Just because God lives near Kolob (not a planet, but a solar system) does not mean that is his planet of origin. That place is his throne. Jesus will one day become a God father like his own father, and create his own universe, after which his own begotten son will act as a Redeemer for his own spirit children. This is an eternal cycle that has been repeated from eternity to eternity.

There wasn't a single God who created everything there is to exist to begin with put it that way. They make stuff up as they go along as they always have a living prophet.

If Mormons are not Christians, then what are they?

They're Mormons, or put them in the category of "New Religion". But they aren't Christians are are certain rules with this. They're not following them.

They accept Christ as their only Redeemer...how then is there some kind of requirement that there not be any other gods?

There were other non-Christian religions that accepted Christ as a redeemer such as Manichaeism. There was Gnosticism which is very debately Christian as they believed in two Gods, one good one evil.

Why are your false notions any more correct than the false notions of Mormons? Both Christian stances smell of shit.

I'm saying they're radically different to the extent that they are different religions. Whether Mormons or you understand this or not is beside the point.