Why would Satan want souls? What use are they to him?

[Foxaèr]

Why are we here?

I am here because my parents had unprotected sex.

Society thinks I am here to serve the rich by working myself to death.

What reason do I personally believe my existence serves? To live my life the way I want without having to worry about theistitards informing me that I must adhere to their way of living.

[Esquilax]

Then...why do "we" exist? Why does anything exist?

Atheists not having an answer in no way increases the truthfulness of any religion.

What you are saying is there is no [reason] for life, except to die. And that there was no basis we are brought into being.

Don't you have things that you enjoy and are meaningful to you beyond religion? Why are those things not a good reason for your life? I guarantee you there are people in your family who like having you around independent of a creator god; that's a reason right there.

To a logical person, that should make no sense at all. There is always a reason (cause & effect)....some reasons we aren't sure of. So we search.

Yes, we do search. Why is not having the answer yet a bad thing?

Why are we here? I say God. For atheists? Its not all that clear to me.

There's no particular reason why we're here, but that doesn't reduce the meaning in life that we make for ourselves.

[ronedee]

It's really hard to argue with something as hazy and completely divorced from reality as the logic you're putting forth. If you're just going to believe in some vague "everything will turn out okay because god," then how is anyone supposed to respond to you?

Well.... let me ask you a question: "What happens after death?" You don't know. Only that no one (Jesus excluded) has come back to complain.

But, for the sake of argument.... Many people (not all religious beforehand!) have been clinically dead and had out of the body experiences. Seeing themselves on the operating table, bi-located, etc.

So, even if we agree they didn't actually die.... we can admit: Something unusual happened. Then this would validate the thought: WE DON'T KNOW.

So in light of all this, "hazy" can safely be used in a situation that is actually divorced from reality. Unless of course you have a good explanation of exactly what goes on after the heart stops?

But the new testament was written by the same kind of superstitious people. How do you know anything in the bible reflects reality if you're going to think like this?

For one, Jesus' words are about: love, life and forgiveness. I'm not saying man was upgraded totally in the NT. But the message is a lot different.

Okay, fine, I don't think you've really understood my point, here. You keep making analogies to real world situations with consequences vastly different from the heaven/hell dichotomy, without understanding that such an analogy is faulty by definition. Not thinking about someone is very different from trapping them in some nether-realm.

But, I'm not thinking like men here! I'm trying to think like God (if you will). I don't think that we are subjected to eternal damnation if we don't want it! Of course there are certain criterion for that.... but I don't perceive it out of the realm of anyone... atheist, christian or otherwise!

I truly believe we have a choice. Even after death. This is in the light of God being a loving one, and us also being loving children of His! No matter what we are wearing!

Well, then my question to you would be, why would you believe anything in the bible, if you're willing to disregard the stories in it as lies? Aren't the good parts also written by the same people? It seems to me like you're just cherry picking, taking the parts you like as accurate while dismissing the inconvenient parts as the words of liars, but in the bible you've described the entire thing could be a lie and you'd have no way of knowing. So why believe it?

I guess I would be, as Catholics call it: "a cafeteria christian". But I take EVERYTHING Jesus says seriously! But, I also take the complete message, and weigh it against the times that He lived in. Parables are not always a good message to me. I like direct quotes and plain messages.

That's the problem.

Well for you. But it means much to me. I'm trying to communicate to you and the others more plainly. I'm hoping that we can understand each other more.

---

Why are we here?

I am here because my parents had unprotected sex.

Society thinks I am here to serve the rich by working myself to death.

What reason do I personally believe my existence serves? To live my life the way I want without having to worry about theistitards informing me that I must adhere to their way of living.

Ya had me up to the last line! No one is making you adhere to, or force feeding you religion. You are here looking and listening of your own volition.

Its a free country do whatever you want holmes!

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Ronedee, you're making a habit of ignoring my questions. Here's a refresher:

1. If a man tells his children, live with me forever or I'll throw you in a burning pit to burn forever. Is he Christlike or is he abusive?

2. Do you acknowledge the possibility that god doesn't exist?

[ronedee]

Atheists not having an answer in no way increases the truthfulness of any religion.

Ok. But, God hasn't weighed in on anything yet,

Don't you have things that you enjoy and are meaningful to you beyond religion? Why are those things not a good reason for your life? I guarantee you there are people in your family who like having you around independent of a creator god; that's a reason right there.

Sure! But I'm talking the BIG picture here!

Yes, we do search. Why is not having the answer yet a bad thing?

Never said that! We search. God? I found!

There's no particular reason why we're here, but that doesn't reduce the meaning in life that we make for ourselves.

Excellent thought! I just carry it a step further to include God.

And I just read a great quote somewhere, that we should have found a reason for living...by the end of our time here!

Here's hoping that we both do! Gudnite bro!

---

Ronedee, you're making a habit of ignoring my questions. Here's a refresher:

1. If a man tells his children, live with me forever or I'll throw you in a burning pit to burn forever. Is he Christlike or is he abusive?

2. Do you acknowledge the possibility that god doesn't exist?

Sorry dear! I thought I did in a round-a-bout way!


1. I believe God is Christlike.

2. No. I never thought that God didn't exist.

*a caveat: at times I felt He wasn't around! But now I realize it was me pushing myself away from Him.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Ronedee, you're making a habit of ignoring my questions. Here's a refresher:

1. If a man tells his children, live with me forever or I'll throw you in a burning pit to burn forever. Is he Christlike or is he abusive?

2. Do you acknowledge the possibility that god doesn't exist?

Sorry dear! I thought I did in a round-a-bout way!


1. I believe God is Christlike.

2. No. I never thought that God didn't exist.

*a caveat: at times I felt He wasn't around! But now I realize it was me pushing myself away from Him.

Thanks for the reply.

1. I wasn't asking about your god. I was asking about a man. So I wasn't asking if god was Christlike, I'm asking if this man was Christlike.

2. In that case, it's a little hypocritical of you to accuse atheists of not considering all possibilities regarding heaven. Especially since most atheists do acknowledge the possibility of the existence of god and heaven.

[Esquilax]

So in light of all this, "hazy" can safely be used in a situation that is actually divorced from reality. Unless of course you have a good explanation of exactly what goes on after the heart stops?

I think you've misunderstood me: what I was saying is that it's really hard to talk details when I'm talking to a guy who's willing to shake off every contention I bring to the table with "god's infinitely powerful, so it won't be a problem. He'll make it so it isn't." Since there's no parameters, the same argument can be used against anything I say; it's essentially having a question answered in such a way that no information is provided, but follow up questions will just get the same answer.

For one, Jesus' words are about: love, life and forgiveness. I'm not saying man was upgraded totally in the NT. But the message is a lot different.

The message might be different- mileage may vary on whether it actually is- but that has no impact on whether or not it's any more truthful than the old testament; two fictional stories can exist side by side, after all. If they couldn't, we'd never have sequels to anything.

I'm interested in whether you'd accept this line of logic from a competing religion, too; if the Hindus discovered their own new testament tomorrow, with a radically different, loving message, would you consider that true too? I suspect not, which leads me to believe that there's additional criteria you're using there.

But, I'm not thinking like men here! I'm trying to think like God (if you will). I don't think that we are subjected to eternal damnation if we don't want it! Of course there are certain criterion for that.... but I don't perceive it out of the realm of anyone... atheist, christian or otherwise!

I truly believe we have a choice. Even after death. This is in the light of God being a loving one, and us also being loving children of His! No matter what we are wearing!

Well, that's a heartening statement. I guess my follow up question would be, why does anyone end up in hell at all, if this is the case?

I guess I would be, as Catholics call it: "a cafeteria christian". But I take EVERYTHING Jesus says seriously! But, I also take the complete message, and weigh it against the times that He lived in. Parables are not always a good message to me. I like direct quotes and plain messages.

Like "slaves obey your masters?"

[Tonus]

Then...why do "we" exist? Why does anything exist?

What you are saying is there is no [reason] for life, except to die. And that there was no basis we are brought into being.

This may be the most dangerous part of religion, in my mind. The idea that life has some kind of greater meaning that can only be fully attained after our life is over. It gives people a reason to live a simple and complacent life regardless of circumstances and to avoid ambition or the motivation to constantly improve themselves and their lifestyle. Far too many people give up on the only life they'll ever have because they think there's a much greater life that will begin when they die. That's tragic, IMO.

To a logical person, that should make no sense at all. There is always a reason (cause & effect)....some reasons we aren't sure of. So we search.

There is no reason why it should be logical to expect there to be some greater, overarching meaning to the existence of the universe, or of Earth, or of humanity. As we search for the "how" of the universe it is possible we will uncover a "why." But making up a "why" because we don't understand the "how" is not a way to make progress, it's just a shortcut, and it can be an obstacle towards a better understanding of our world and universe.

[FifthElement]

1. I wasn't asking about your god. I was asking about a man. So I wasn't asking if god was Christlike, I'm asking if this man was Christlike.

2. In that case, it's a little hypocritical of you to accuse atheists of not considering all possibilities regarding heaven. Especially since most atheists do acknowledge the possibility of the existence of god and heaven.

You are not gonna get a straight answer here it seems

[ronedee]

Thanks for the reply.

1. I wasn't asking about your god. I was asking about a man. So I wasn't asking if god was Christlike, I'm asking if this man was Christlike.

2. In that case, it's a little hypocritical of you to accuse atheists of not considering all possibilities regarding heaven. Especially since most atheists do acknowledge the possibility of the existence of god and heaven.

1. Ok, but I can't relate to a loving man throwing his kids in the basement. If that were the case... God would've killed us off a long time ago!

2. I've never accused anyone of, "not considering all possibilities regarding heaven". What I did say, was that every atheist has a different opinion. Which I guess they are entitled to. I just have a hard time remembering who has what!

---

I think you've misunderstood me: what I was saying is that it's really hard to talk details when I'm talking to a guy who's willing to shake off every contention I bring to the table with "god's infinitely powerful, so it won't be a problem. He'll make it so it isn't." Since there's no parameters, the same argument can be used against anything I say; it's essentially having a question answered in such a way that no information is provided, but follow up questions will just get the same answer.

No. I don't think we are having that type of conversation. Just from the fact that I haven't shaken off anything you've presented. I've tried to answer in a manner that makes some kind of common (i.e. both see possibility) sense. Maybe if we keep on, you will see my points. I do want to know yours.

The message might be different- mileage may vary on whether it actually is- but that has no impact on whether or not it's any more truthful than the old testament; two fictional stories can exist side by side, after all. If they couldn't, we'd never have sequels to anything.

But, indeed Jesus' is a very compelling story. And a very humble one.

I'm interested in whether you'd accept this line of logic from a competing religion, too; if the Hindus discovered their own new testament tomorrow, with a radically different, loving message, would you consider that true too? I suspect not, which leads me to believe that there's additional criteria you're using there.

Based in "love & forgiveness"? I wouldn't condemn it! As I said in another thread. Jesus' signifies in several accounts that there are "followers of other flocks". What does that mean (rhetorically)? I don't know exactly. But, I won't discount it. Nor, would I embrace any other religion wholeheartedly. I still point to Jesus' words! And that [could be] any religion, or man living by them. Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life." He didn't say we needed to say His name to be saved (which does help btw!)...He said we needed to follow Him!

Well, that's a heartening statement. I guess my follow up question would be, why does anyone end up in hell at all, if this is the case?

Because they don't have 'Love'. And I mean that in the true sense of the word. It's easy to love people that love us. The hard part is loving people...well...in a lot of cases, that don't love us. or actually hate us.

I remember something my mom told me when I was a teen, and found some reason to hate someone who treated me badly. My mom said: "Love all of God that is in a person."

That didn't make much sense at the time. But, as I got older I pondered that. And more so, when she passed on. And now I know what she meant. We are all part of our creator. Whether we know it or not, there is some part of God in us all.

And ultimately, that is exactly why Jesus tells us to "Love our enemies."

I truly believe that Love is what we will be judged on.

"...and in the end - the love you get - is equal to - the love - you give."
Lennon & MCartney