The Crocodillema

[worldslaziestbusker]

I wouldn't kill unless I was sure the end justified the means.
Darwinian natural selection "commands" such killing every hour of every day.

This is not about the ends justifying the means, this is about a message, every bit as compelling as that which convinced you of the existence of your deity, instructing you to kill me. No context. No explanation, just the message. How would you react?
Do you take personal revelation seriously, or is it just something you cite as a means to rationalise otherwise unsupported faith?

Bringing natural selection into this is another red herring. This is not about whether or not other entities kill, or how their killing is or is not justified. It is about how you treat information you allege comes from your deity.

Answer the question: how would you react?

I'll make it easy for you by outlining the possible answers.

1) Kill

2) Don't kill

There are no other options. Killing is binary. Which way would you go?

Don't moan that I've boxed you into a corner. You did that yourself by alleging a personal revelation as a compelling plank in your faith. I am sick of theists claiming atheists paint them into corners on these matters. I wasn't the one who brought unsubstantiated claims to the table. If you feel painted in to a corner, look to your own hand for the brush.

[Lion IRC]

It's kind of surprising to see an atheist advocating that one ought not question the orders being given. All you seem to want is a simple unthinking response to the Crocodilemma.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous of you?

You say...don't think about it or question the cost/benefits, don't ask if it really IS God commanding you to execute a convicted murderer, ignore the ends justifying the means, ignore the fact that mandatory killing takes place all the time...

AND THEN you will attack blind, unthinking obedience to God.

[worldslaziestbusker]

It's kind of surprising to see an atheist advocating that one ought not question the orders being given. All you seem to want is a simple unthinking response to the Crocodilemma.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous of you?

You say...don't think about it or question the cost/benefits, don't ask if it really IS God commanding you to execute a convicted murderer, ignore the ends justifying the means, ignore the fact that mandatory killing takes place all the time...

AND THEN you will attack blind, unthinking obedience to God.

I'm not the one who claims to get unsolicited messages from an unverifiable source, so it's not disingenuous of me to examine the claims people attach to such experiences. It's entirely sincere that I want to know what those claims entail.

Can you fault me attacking blind, unthinking obedience to personally revealed information?

While you're at it, you could stop throwing red herrings about and answer the question. I am happy to deal with natural selection and state mandated killing in their own threads. Bringing them up here doesn't absolve you of the need to deal with the repercussions of your claims regarding personal revelation.

[Ryantology]

It's kind of surprising to see an atheist advocating that one ought not question the orders being given. All you seem to want is a simple unthinking response to the Crocodilemma.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous of you?

You say...don't think about it or question the cost/benefits, don't ask if it really IS God commanding you to execute a convicted murderer, ignore the ends justifying the means, ignore the fact that mandatory killing takes place all the time...

AND THEN you will attack blind, unthinking obedience to God.

It's sad, really. You're as close to the verge of an honest intellectual breakthrough as such a small mind can manage, but you'll never reach out and grab it.

[Doubting Thomas]

AND THEN you will attack blind, unthinking obedience to God.

And why not? Look at what it's given us in the past.

[Little Rik]

Let us clear the air.
Religions pretend to be the voice of God.
Unfortunately for them God never authorize them to distort pure spirituality and turn it into dogma or false truth.
In other words you should be careful to consider God and religions on the same level.
Would you be happy if some idiot pretend to be you or someone after stealing your plastic card and your details steal your money?

[worldslaziestbusker]

Let us clear the air.
Religions pretend to be the voice of God.
Unfortunately for them God never authorize them to distort pure spirituality and turn it into dogma or false truth.
In other words you should be careful to consider God and religions on the same level.
Would you be happy if some idiot pretend to be you or someone after stealing your plastic card and your details steal your money?

Hello Enrico
Personal revelation need not involve religion. It's personal. People do claim to have had direct interaction with their deity, and many alleged deities, the Abrahamic gods particularly, have long histories of allegedly demanding their adherents kill, so in real world terms, this is a very important question which warrants a sincere answer. People have and still are killing on alleged divine mandate. If you perceived the message outlined in the OP, how would you react.

[max-greece]

I seem to remember George W. Bush claiming to ask God prior to invading Iraq - so this isn't an academic question.

So Lion - stop dancing and complaining and answer the question.....

[Esquilax]

It's kind of surprising to see an atheist advocating that one ought not question the orders being given. All you seem to want is a simple unthinking response to the Crocodilemma.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous of you?

What are you talking about? If you advocate a divine, perfect, righteous entity of whom you trust to always make moral actions, who essentially owns you and controls your eternal fate, and then you trust that this god contacts you through "personal experience," then I don't see how you can get around unthinking responses.

You christians are always so quick to drape superlatives over your god, talking about his all good nature, how he's your lord, everything he does is good, etc etc. If you get your morality from him, why would you need to think through what you perceive to be his orders and check them against your own moral compass before you execute on them or not? It's his morality, isn't it?

This isn't about us, it's about you guys, who've built this god up as perfect and to be experienced- sufficient enough to believe in him- in a personal, unverifiable way; you're being asked whether you'd put your god's will, in your mind, over your own current physical well being.

[Little Rik]

Let us clear the air.
Religions pretend to be the voice of God.
Unfortunately for them God never authorize them to distort pure spirituality and turn it into dogma or false truth.
In other words you should be careful to consider God and religions on the same level.
Would you be happy if some idiot pretend to be you or someone after stealing your plastic card and your details steal your money?

Hello Enrico
Personal revelation need not involve religion. It's personal. People do claim to have had direct interaction with their deity, and many alleged deities, the Abrahamic gods particularly, have long histories of allegedly demanding their adherents kill, so in real world terms, this is a very important question which warrants a sincere answer. People have and still are killing on alleged divine mandate. If you perceived the message outlined in the OP, how would you react.

The problem lie with the INDIVIDUAL mind.
You got to bring your mind under control or your mind will control you and make you believe whatever your reactive momenta or reaction to your previous actions tend to lead you to.
God and deities have nothing to do with it really.
It all come out from your imagination.
The only way out this problem is to be able to control your mind so hallucination and false truth are not allow to control you.