Pro abortion or not

[WesOlsen]

Yeah pro-choice. It's not really murder if medical science demonstrates consistantly that a non-viable foetus lacks developed human attributes; CNS, brain etc. Appealing to sentiment is disingenuous and reminiscent of the tactics religious types use in other topics of debate. It could be a choice a couple make together, or when there is no second agent then it's something a woman can make by herself. The religious right usually prefer to legislate for dishonest reasons; it's often not so much about 'murder' but more about ensuring that offspring are born in to the correct religious family unit where the religious indoctronation can propogate effectively and ensure the survival of the appropriate dogma. The pope loves to chat shit about falling birth rates in europe, but what he really means is falling catholic birth rates; I doubt he'd be praising the lord if atheists and muslims managed to initiate a new baby boom.

[Lion IRC]

I'm personally against abortion, but strongly support a woman's right to chose. I might disagree, but in the end it isn't my place to tell women what they can & cannot do with their bodies.

This.

You're pretty good at that whole...lukewarm, disagree but don't object, timid, tepid relativism thingy.

Tolerance über Alles!

[Jacob(smooth)]

Thanks Lion! Given that it's an emotive and complex debate I consider a complex and moderate position, taking into account all the arguments is a reasonable position to take. As opposed to ignoring all the arguments on one side of the debate so we can paint the world in nice comforting black and white.

However for the record there was nothing lukewarm about MarxRaptor s position. He holds two mutually exclusive principles in high esteem and has decide which one takes precedent is all.

I'm not especially lukewarm on this either. My wife had to have an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy in January. I desperately wanted the child to live, but sadly it was never to be. So I had to take the decision (because she was a mess of emotional anguish, pain and drugs) to terminate the pregnancy. Since when we have had to read that sickening smug and self righteous "abortion is murder" slogan quite a lot. Kinda salts the wound each time I see it.

So yeah having killed what I arbiterily decided would have been my son, lukewarm is not an adjective I'd pick. But still, that's my own view and my own baggage which I have no right to project onto others and my strength of feeling does not make my emotional response an objective moral principle.

Interesting that you chose the word tolerance. I'd go with "respect" myself. Respect for another person's right to make their own decisions about their own bodies.

So thanks for your view. Feel free to write it on a piece of paper, roll it up, shove it up you sanctimonious arse and set fire to it.

[Whateverist]

Yeah heaven forbid there be consequences to your actions. As I said flagrant abuse of sexual freedoms for personal satisfaction, and theists say we can't have morals...........

Since sex is something pleasurable to both sexes, I see no reason why consequences should accrue only to women. Now that we have loads of technology which can prevent and terminate unwanted pregnancies why should women be inconvenienced with them? Do you just not like women?

I'm sure it is sad for anyone who decides to terminate a pregnancy. But lets face it, for the health and vitality of the planet, an abortion of a human fetus is a very good thing. We aren't quite a monoculture here but we make up way too big a proportion of the biosphere for our own good. If there were a deity invested in our planet it would smile every time a woman opts for an abortion.

[pocaracas]

ok, now for a more serious approach and a possible reiteration of the same thing for the n'th time.

Should we abort? On general, no... it's not ok to kill a potential human child.
However, people do decide to do that. And they do it regardless of the legality of the act... and disregarding the very real health problems that arise from that, if done at "home".
Should we allow people to abort if that's their wish? yes... make them do it in a proper clinic or hospital... and take the opportunity to sell some propaganda on safe sex and family planning, just in case that pregnancy came out of ignorance and/or wrong ideas about contraception.
Abortion for medical reasons (mother or child's) is a no-brainer... just do it.

[Whateverist]

Well I too was entirely serious. On the personal level it could be very sad for a couple to abort as it was for Jacob and could well be for me as well. However, from a dispassionate point of view I truly do think it is a win for the planet. There is no shortage of human beings on this planet and we do not exactly tread lightly here. I know projections call for human population to steady before long, but we are already turning the oceans to deserts and every arable acre towards feeding only our own kind. The fly, the mosquito and the rat will always find a home amid what we do with the planet but that is not exactly encouraging. Biodiversity is healthy. There are way more of us than would be ideal either aesthetically or in consideration of our long term own survival.

[pocaracas]

Well I too was entirely serious.

We agree.... but I wasn't replying to you!
The "seriousness" of my post was due to my previous post on this thread... which was less than serious...

And again we go down the rabbit's hole...

[sarcasm]
YES, definitely pro!
Every women should abort every time she gets pregnant!
Humans are overrated and need to just die!

[/]

[Polaris]

Not talking from a medical perspective where the life of the mother/unborn child is in danger, I can't justify standing against both war and death sentences yet turn around and support abortions.

[Brakeman]

Not talking from a medical perspective where the life of the mother/unborn child is in danger, I can't justify standing against both war and death sentences yet turn around and support abortions.

I certainly can. The deciding factor is the conscious mind. We are multicellular organisms who have no qualms whatsoever against killing masses of cells (think beer parties) yet we stop when someone consciously doesn't want to die. We are understanding of, even if we don't support, euthanasia which is the conscious beings desire to die. A fetus has no complex mental activity anymore than the area someone tattoos on their butt, yet we don't condemn tattooing except for it's occasional tackiness.

A birthed baby has more complex neurology, but isn't to the level of conscious thought yet, but as a society we are hard wired to give born babies protection and love, so we leave well enough alone.

[Lion IRC]

Thanks Lion! Given that it's an emotive and complex debate...

Complex? You make it sound simple.

...I consider a complex and moderate position, taking into account all the arguments is a reasonable position to take.

You havent taken ANY position.
Saying you are opposed to abortion but dont object to other people having abortions whenever they want - is NOT a position.

...As opposed to ignoring all the arguments on one side of the debate so we can paint the world in nice comforting black and white.

I didnt hear any arguments from you. Black OR white. For or against. So it seems that YOU are the one going for the beige, custom-fit, do whatever you feel is right morality.
How does that feel? Laodicean?
Nice? Comfortable? Popular?

...He holds two mutually exclusive principles in high esteem and has decide which one takes precedent is all.

And you agreed with someone who holds two mutually exclusive positions?

...I'm not especially lukewarm on this either. My wife had to have an abortion for an ectopic pregnancy in January.

Had to have....
This is not an "an emotive and complex" issue - not even for strong opponents of abortion-on-demand. Saving one life as opposed to definitely losing TWO, is a moral no-brainer.

The same medical/ethical dilemmas are faced when emergency necessity forces the separation of conjoined twins where either one possibly lives or both certainly die.

So please dont try to equate that life saving medical intervention with the elective destruction of healthy unborn babies.

...I desperately wanted the child to live, but sadly it was never to be.

I am very sorry for the loss of your unborn son.
Human life is precious. (Thats why I oppose abortion.)

...So I had to take the decision (because she was a mess of emotional anguish, pain and drugs) to terminate the pregnancy.

I would argue that the medical treatment of patients with ectopic pregnancies is a moral question of whether one or both lives can be saved.
The pro-life position would be that saving one life is better than losing two.

But that is still based on the position that BOTH OF THE LIVES YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE ARE HUMAN BEINGS.

It is not a utilitarian question or a moral dilemma or a eugenics argument about which life is less valuable or precious.

...when we have had to read that sickening smug and self righteous "abortion is murder" slogan quite a lot. Kinda salts the wound each time I see it.

Why would that bother you? Those posters are aimed at people who support abortion on-demand as a right, not at doctors who are faced with the inevitable failure of an ectopic pregnancy as against the hope of at least saving the mothers life.

What percentage of the millions of abortions performed each year do you think are necessary to save the life of the mother?

...Interesting that you chose the word tolerance. I'd go with "respect" myself. Respect for another person's right to make their own decisions about their own bodies.

If an unborn baby is a boy, is their penis part of the mothers body?


(If you want to see hypocrisy writ-large, chat to a pro-choicer who opposes circumcision. You can abort an unborn baby but parents who circumcise their new born babies butchers.)

...So thanks for your view. Feel free to write it on a piece of paper, roll it up, shove it up you sanctimonious arse and set fire to it.

Your welcome.
I can assure you I wont hesitate to offer you my view anytime I see fit.
...since you are so big on "respecting" what other people do with their own bodies. I look forward to your ongoing "respect".

Its an interesting paradox that the supporters of abortion on-demand chant... it's a womans body, its a womans choice, mind your own business, right up until the baby is born, and then it's the taxpayers job to step up and support unmarried moms if her choice of fertility partner leaves her.