Neanderthal Genome Study...

[Minimalist]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...134956.htm

In the past few years, studies by groups including Reich's have revealed that present-day people of non-African ancestry trace an average of about 2 percent of their genomes to Neanderthals -- a legacy of interbreeding between humans and Neanderthals that the team previously showed occurred between 40,000 to 80,000 years ago. (Indigenous Africans have little or no Neanderthal DNA because their ancestors did not breed with Neanderthals, who lived in Europe and Asia.)

[Anomalocaris]

I think the fact that 40,000 years of interbreeding produced only a 2% genetic contribution suggests the two groups were essentially distinct during the whole time they coexisted.

I defy you to find any two modern human groups that coexisted for just 400 years without showing more than 2% mutural genetic contribution, regardless of ethnic, racial, sociological and economic barriers. I think even the Brahmans and Dalits in India interbred many orders of magnitudes more often than Humans and Neatherthals.

[Minimalist]

Possible that the contact was extremely limited. Estimate of HNS populations from Spain to the Crimea run in the region of 15,000.
How many "modern humans" could have penetrated that far that fast?

Also possible that there was conflict between the groups and HNS men were killed while the women were taken prisoner. Again, very small scale warfare.

Also possible that the genetic overlap is the legacy of a common ancestor to both groups. I see Homo Erectus as a prime suspect in that one.

It will keep the scientists busy looking for answers. After all, unlike theistic shitwits they don't think they already have all the answers.

[Anomalocaris]

Possible that the contact was extremely limited. Estimate of HNS populations from Spain to the Crimea run in the region of 15,000.
How many "modern humans" could have penetrated that far that fast?

Also possible that there was conflict between the groups and HNS men were killed while the women were taken prisoner. Again, very small scale warfare.

Also possible that the genetic overlap is the legacy of a common ancestor to both groups. I see Homo Erectus as a prime suspect in that one.

It will keep the scientists busy looking for answers. After all, unlike theistic shitwits they don't think they already have all the answers.

The genetic overlap would not be the legacy of any common ancester if African homo sapiens didn't share it.

I simply don't think horny younglings from either camp could have actually overlooked so many opportunities over 40,000 years for quick rolls in the grass. I suspect the low incidence of genetic contribution is at least attributable to Homo Sapiens being genetically sufficiently distinct from Neanderthals that while the biological , not just sociological chance of successful interbreeding is not quite zero, it is far lower than between any pair of homo sapiens today.

[Minimalist]

Depends on how long from the exodus of HE from Africa, though. We have Dmanisi c 2 million years ago in Georgia so if HE walked out of Africa it had to have been prior to that. 2 million BC to 40,000 BC is a long time.

Of course, if HE arose in Asia and one group walked into Africa that sort of junks the whole thing.

It would not have been 40,000 years though. Assuming, pending further revision, that HSS arrived c 40,000 BC and HNS was extinct by 28,000 that is only 12k years of "peaceful coexistence" ( or combat ).

How rapidly might isolated groups of stone age hunter/gatherers have spread through Europe with its mountains and rivers?

I suspect that many HNS/HSS lived out their lives and never saw the other.

[Anomalocaris]

I suspect that many HNS/HSS lived out their lives and never saw the other.

Yeah, but 12,000 years still leaves a lot of room for many hormonally charged HNS/HSS to see someone from other camp of the approximately correct sex right around the moment he or she has begun to ponder whether hormonal frustration can be alleviated by servicing him or herself.

[Cato]

White supremacists, tiger moms, and Mormons are going to have a tough time with this. According to the study those of African decent are pure bread, the rest of us are mongrels.

[Anomalocaris]

White supremacists, tiger moms, and Mormons are going to have a tough time with this. According to the study those of African decent are pure bread, the rest of us are mongrels.

Incidentally, recent genetic evidence suggests ancesters of Scandanavians were commonly quite dark skinned and black haired, although blue eyed, as recently as 8,000 years ago.

[Cato]

Incidentally, recent genetic evidence suggests ancesters of Scandanavians were commonly quite dark skinned and black haired, although blue eyed, as recently as 8,000 years ago.

Modern Arabs or Northern Indians could have called an viking ancester from a mere 8,000 years ago "Darkie",

I read an article this week on the subject of dark skinned scandanavians this week. Here's a picture of Lars. A link to the article follows.



http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/...-dna-tooth

[Minimalist]

I suspect that many HNS/HSS lived out their lives and never saw the other.

Yeah, but 12,000 years still leaves a lot of room for many hormonally charged HNS/HSS to see someone from other camp of the approximately correct sex right around the moment he or she has begun to ponder whether hormonal frustration can be alleviated by servicing him or herself.

Sure. As Lenny Bruce once said: "Guys will fuck mud if there is nothing else."

We know that contact was made in the Levant. But there was no overall plan for HSS to "colonize" Europe. Individual groups breaking off and moving on is a slow process. But it is also true that no one crossed the Hellespont or the Straits of Gibraltar without thinking it over first and having the technology to make the journey (boats). Now boats could be used to cross the Danube or the Rhone. They wouldn't be much use crossing the Alps. If they had boats, and they must have, then why walk at all when you could simply sail along the coast until you saw a promising spot or sail up a river?

Equal with the technology is the idea of population density, for both sides. I'm not so sure how I feel about this sort of statistical modeling based on genetics...if only because genetics is a new science and they keep re-defining themselves.

http://www.livescience.com/5570-neandert...ction.html

In fact, new genetic evidence from the remains of six Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) suggests the population hovered at an average of 1,500 females of reproductive age in Europe between 38,000 and 70,000 years ago, with the maximum estimate of 3,500 such female Neanderthals.

But just for the hell of it let's assume that they are off by a factor of 100%. So there were 7,000 females capable of reproduction, max, spread out from Iberia to the Volga. That's a big area and opportunities for contact, while they must have happened, could not have been an everyday occurrence.

This kind of stuff fascinates me, in case you haven't guessed.