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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 2:43 am
(February 4, 2014 at 4:36 pm)Lek Wrote: Arising naturally over time from what? Something, whatever it is, had to always exist or it came into being at some time. I did state that one of the possibilities was that the universe always existed. Or maybe what the universe came from something that always existed. But science can't answer that question.
See, that's the thing: you're making a lot of declarative statements, but you don't know any more than anyone else what the possibilities are. You're restricting this conversation to two possibilities, based solely on the fact that they're all you can imagine; this is an argument from ignorance.
Also, you say science can't answer this question: how the hell did you decide that?
Quote:
Like I said, I didn't try to rule out the possibility of the universe always existing. What I said was that the material universe always existed or it created itself from nothing. I guess it could have been created from something else, but something had to be first.
How do you know any of this? 
Quote:What I said was that if the universe that created itself, it shares a characteristic with the christian God.
So what?
Quote:I wasn't trying to do that. I was trying to open people up to the very real possibilty that God could exist and that scientific discovery isn't the only path to knowing that.
So, if this god interacts in the world in any way, then those effects can be tested scientifically. If it doesn't, then it's indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist, and you have no possible justification for believing it does.
Besides, can you suggest a method for discovering god exists that itself couldn't be tested?
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 3:15 am
(This post was last modified: February 5, 2014 at 3:22 am by Popsicle.)
(February 2, 2014 at 5:44 pm)Lek Wrote: When I talk about the universe, I'm refering to any material thing that ever existed. Now try to wrap your brain around this. I think that we can all agree that either the universe always existed or it came into being at some time from the nothing that was already there. According to christians and many other theists God was not created. He always existed and has the power to create the universe. So either the universe always existed with no beginning or else it created itself, both of which require qualities of God.
The problems begin when people start thinking the bible is infallible. Keep your current line of thinking, toss out most of the bible (keep some of Jesus's teachings for good measure), and go from there...
to your original statement: yea, no one has an answer to that. It's why religions are able to make so much money, by pretending to have the answer. It's the problem of infinity really. The human brain can't process it. What is god? did a god make god? it goes on forever... fuck!
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 3:25 am
Be careful Esquilax. I don't think Lek is arguing from ignorance, he knows damn well the range of possibilities. What he's doing is invoking the law of the excluded middle by establishing a false dichotomy.
Lek is forced to do this because he has absolutely no evidence for his claim.
Lek,
Be honest here. If you or any other Christian had evidence for God you would shove it so far up our ass that we would become a human Coo Coo Clock.
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 3:29 am
(This post was last modified: February 5, 2014 at 3:33 am by Popsicle.)
(February 5, 2014 at 3:25 am)Cato Wrote: Be careful Esquilax. I don't think Lek is arguing from ignorance, he knows damn well the range of possibilities. What he's doing is invoking the law of the excluded middle by establishing a false dichotomy.
Lek is forced to do this because he has absolutely no evidence for his claim.
Lek,
Be honest here. If you or any other Christian had evidence for God you would shove it so far up our ass that we would become a human Coo Coo Clock.
Your saying he's a professional? If he is I'm disappointed...
(February 5, 2014 at 2:43 am)Esquilax Wrote: Besides, can you suggest a method for discovering god exists that itself couldn't be tested?
Dr. Larry claims he receives transmissions from god like a SETI satellite dish 
https://atheistforums.org/thread-23431.html
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 4:00 am
(February 5, 2014 at 3:29 am)Popsicle Wrote: Your saying he's a professional? If he is I'm disappointed...
I'm quite certain I never made this claim; even considering the possibility of an unintentional double entendre.
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 2:50 pm
(February 2, 2014 at 11:18 pm)Lek Wrote: What I'm trying to do is open closed-minded people to the possibility that something may well exist that is beyond the scope of our ability to find it through scientific discovery. Why is it not possible that a non-corporeal being could reveal himself to humanity?
If this thing is undetectable using demonstrable, testable, verifiable and falsifiable evidence, how are we supposed to differentiated it from something that doesn't exist?
What mechanism do you use?
How does your mechanism for detection differ than say, Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, etc, etc?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 4:47 pm
(This post was last modified: February 5, 2014 at 4:50 pm by Simon Moon.)
(February 2, 2014 at 11:18 pm)Lek Wrote: Why is it not possible that a non-corporeal being could reveal himself to humanity?
How would we go about discovering if this has or does occur, or even if a non-corporeal being exists in the first place?
But if it did, then in theory, that would be a testable claim.
If something interacts with the natural world, it is within the purview of science.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 7:43 pm
(February 5, 2014 at 5:36 pm)Weewah Wrote: Our brains aren't smart enough to know where everything started. I bet the answer is way more mind-fucky than just "Pick one: 1. The universe is God and created itself from nothing, 2. The universe was always there". Neither of these options even answers anything.
Whenever God poops a new universe is created. 
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RE: Is the universe God?
February 5, 2014 at 9:12 pm
(February 5, 2014 at 7:43 pm)Popsicle Wrote: Whenever God poops a new universe is created.
That's beautiful! Even more beautiful then Jesus's feet.
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