So U think Vegan is healthy?

[Alex K]

If it's not a nutrient deficiency, then what is it that happens when we start eating meat to make some of us healthy again?

Yeah, seriously, what else is there? There's got to be an explanation, and if we find out which it is, it will possibly enable people who don't want to eat meat to avoid problems.
Aractus, your approach seems to be that we need our meatichlorians, which are a magical substance which cannot be provided by alternative means, because...
Aren't you curious what the actual problem is?

[Napoléon]

the sound of how awesome bacon is!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSZx6qKyXQ8

[Alex K]

*Barf*

[Napoléon]

And there is the bias.

[Alex K]

And there is the bias.

Bias towards what?

[Aractus]

Yeah, seriously, what else is there? There's got to be an explanation, and if we find out which it is, it will possibly enable people who don't want to eat meat to avoid problems.
Aractus, your approach seems to be that we need our meatichlorians, which are a magical substance which cannot be provided by alternative means, because...
Aren't you curious what the actual problem is?

Yes I am curious, and if you'd read what I said - my opinion has shifted, I need to unlearn everything I've learned about plant-based foods and the nutrients they provide. Everything. From this day on I know nothing.

In the video above the lady talks about how we can't digest cellulose (which we commonly call fibre and we use it to solidify our stool), and that plant proteins come wrapped in cellulose - I did not know this. Furthermore at this link shared by Harley, it talks about how there are only 300 species of plants that humans can eat - 300 out of 195,000 species, but yet we can digest and eat just about whatever meat we want.

I am curious, but I don't have the answer. I don't think you know the answer, if the dozens of doctors he saw for 22 years didn't have an answer that worked without going to meat then I don't see how you can claim to have a vegan-based medical answer. The only scientific answer that there is at present is that ancient humans had a primary diet of meat with vegetables and fruit, and that diet feeds our bodies needs.

---

Alex Jamieson no longer vegan:

• While these cravings warred with my vegan-teacher self, I noticed that most of my health coaching clients and readers were not vegan. Many of them were interested in trying this style of eating, often for the same reasons that I had.
  They love animals and don’t want to contribute to their suffering.
  They care about the planet and our global health.
  They want to feel well in their bodies and lose weight.
  Yet, some of these clients weren’t thriving on a vegan diet. Some were sicker and heavier after going vegan than they were before.
  And they were so ashamed. Ashamed that it didn’t work for them when they thought it a moral, “right and kind” diet. Ashamed that the weight loss others had experienced wasn’t happening for them.
  They felt like failures.
  From that place, they craved something different.
  They were looking for a state of health and well-being where they didn’t feel judged or guilty for their bodies’ needs… or cravings.
  And I told them what I started to tell myself:
  Some cravings are just your body telling you what it needs.
  So I began coaching more and more people to trust their bodies.
  To learn to listen to their own, innate knowing.
  To live their truth.
  
  And people began to relax and feel better in their bodies. They lightened up about food and felt better about themselves. Once they started listening to their bodies and trusting themselves, the judgment about food lifted and they started eating better because they wanted to, not because they “should.”

[Minimalist]

Bacon might be the only thing on earth worth worshiping.

[Aractus]

• Never Trust an Ex-Vegan:
  
  I, like many other people in the vegan community, have sat silent after reading Alexandra Jamieson's post about not being vegan anymore. I silently unfriended her on facebook. I silently removed her from my twitter feed. I silently read the comments (It took me more than two hours before I finally had to stop, there are over 1100 comments!) without leaving one myself.
  
  Then I listened to Erin Red's podcast, Red Radio Episode #57. She may have well been talking directly to me when she called me out on being silent. So, here I am, finally speaking my piece.
  
  Let me begin by saying, I am in no way perfect. I never have claimed to be, and never will. I don't grow my own food, and I admit to really enjoying some of the most ridiculous of vegan convenience foods. Often. But, I am a vegan. I have a "V" tattooed below my right ear to remind me of it every single time I look into the mirror. This is a commitment I have made for life. And I will not waver. Have I made mistakes? Of course. But to consciously order and eat a steak? Nope. That will never happen. Ever.
  
  How does someone, after knowing what they know about the absolute disgusting practices of murder and torture that are a part of the animals-for-food industry, ever even think twice about being meat free for life? Well, she did. Because she was craving it. What the fuck? Are you kidding me? Almost every single day, my body craves french fries, cigarettes (which I gave up almost 3 years ago now, thank you very much), Tofutti Better Than Cream Cheese, Vegenaise, coffee, and yes, even bacon. Yep, I crave bacon. The smell of it doesn't make me sick to my stomach, it makes my mouth water...just like you Alex. But guess what? I don't eat the bacon. I just don't. Why, because I know it is wrong. IT IS WRONG! It is wrong to eat another animal. Just like it would be wrong for me to eat my sister.
  
  ...

Not all vegans are militant vegans, however what I'm finding right now is the difficulty in finding real fact regarding vegan lifestyles. 90% or more of the pro-vegan hype is purely anecdotal and I want to know about is the clinical side. Lierre Keith in the video I posted before talks about how she was aware of anti-vegan science but intentionally ignored it as a vegan, and I know I've said this 1000x but the truth never falters: we as humans leap to conclusions and then ignore counterevidence. And we have a word for this: decision. I can be obsessive at times with decisions - if I go to Wollies I've been known to stare at the cheese for 5 minutes before deciding on which one to buy (or the same with other products - bread etc); and it's not because I'm afraid of making the wrong choice, but it's more to do with that I don't think I can make an informed choice until I consider my options. Most people do not do this. Even if they want to, they would still impulsively choose a product and then not second-guess it.

There is importance in making quick decisions, but there's also importance in research and fact finding - sometimes the former is better sometimes the latter is better. The response to Alex Jamieson that I've posted above is an example of this in action - read it for yourself: "What the fuck? Are you kidding me? .. I don't eat the bacon. I just don't. Why, because I know it is wrong. IT IS WRONG! It is wrong to eat another animal. Just like it would be wrong for me to eat my sister." Their belief is so engrained that they aren't receptive to listening to clinical evidence or considering facts that may challenge it.

As I said above, I need to wipe the slate completely clean and forget everything I know about nutrition - nothing is sacred, nothing is to be taken for granted. I knew that long-term veganism can lead to osteoporosis etc but I had absolutely no idea of just what else it is capable of - even when people are taking supplements. Prior to today I did believe that long-term vegans are capable of good health with a well planned diet that may include supplements - and my criticism was that it requires vigorous planning of every meal to ensure you are getting all the nutrients. As of today I no longer believe this.

As a temporary diet, vegetarianism can be great and of that I still have no doubt. But it's the long term effects that I'm now interested in - people who were raised vegetarian or people who have been vegetarian/vegan for longer than 20 years. The questions I want to know the answer to are can it inhibit proper digestive function and result in inadequate nutrient absorption by the body, and can it lead to unavoidable deficiencies because of this. Harley took B12 supplements, multivitamins, etc and also he ate as much plant based protein that he could and was unable to build muscle. We do have vegan athletes that successfully build muscle, but none of them have been vegan for at least 20 years, and even though they may be building muscle etc there still could be long term digestive effects, and I'm really interested in finding out more about this.

[Bad Writer]

I agree that going Vegan is a bit extreme, as a person has to give up all animal products just to eat the way they wish to, but it's a serious logical fallacy to say that since a few ex-vegans seemed more sickly prior to putting meat back into their diets that this same condition applies equally to every Vegan out there.

Also, if a person chooses to go Vegan due to a philosophical and moral conviction, it is wrong for us to mandate that they eat a non-vegan diet. It is akin to us trying to force an individual who doesn't like to eat spaghetti to do so.

If an adult wants to eat a certain way, then they may. If one ailing Vegan feels better after eating a steak, is that really reason to tell perfectly healthy Vegans that they must follow suit? Think about it.

[KichigaiNeko]

Some interesting studies here
http://www.beyondveg.com/index.shtml