So U think Vegan is healthy?

[Aractus]

No, and in fact we all need meat for B12.

And why would there be a progression in the fossil record as we don't know what species humans came from 200,000 years ago?

[NoraBrimstone]

I get B12 without meat. I get iron without meat. Will you stfu now?

[Aractus]

Dude, I'm very pro meat eating, but the paleo diet has been ranked at the very bottom of just about every kind of diet that's been compared to it.

I'm not a proponent, but that's ridiculous. A paleo diet is basically "eat as if you're gluten intolerant". It's certainly not as extreme as veganism. Veganism excludes meat/fish/dairy/eggs from the diet (the foods that are most nutrient-rich), whereas paleo excludes grain (the food group that is most nutrient-poor). So to say that it's at the bottom of every kind of diet is a little misguided.

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I get B12 without meat. I get iron without meat. Will you stfu now?

• I've been a Vegetarian since December 1991, just after my 5th Birthday. I'd recently found out that meat was dead animals, which I thought was gross because animals are gross and smelly, so eating meat had been making me sick for a little while. Then I found out from a friend at school that I didn't have to eat meat, so I went home and told my mum I wasn't going to eat animals anymore. 22 years later I've never eaten meat.

Veganism works for you, and you found this out by experimentation. It doesn't work for everyone, and as happened to Harley, it can be very harmful for some people. There's no one diet that is right for everyone.

[NoraBrimstone]

So why are you so against it? You clearly are aware that it isn't actually unhealthy for most people. So some people need meat. Good for them. That has nothing to do with the people do don't need meat and/or don't want to eat meat.

Vegetarians and vegans tend to live longer than people who eat meat. That's not because we don't eat meat, but because we're generally more conscious of what we're eating than meat eaters, and the result is often a healthier diet. Now, if not eating meat was actively unhealthy for humans we wouldn't see this difference in life span because the deadly effects of the meatlessness would knock a few years off of us.

If you're actually interested in how healthy different diets are, I suggest you go and do some more research into the paleo diet and other high-protein diets. Specifically, the dangers of said diets, which I personally have read are linked to increased risk of heart disease and various cancers. One article I read suggested these diets can be as dangerous as smoking. So that might be an interesting one to look into.

How does it fit in with an actual healthy diet?

Looking at this, I can see clearly where a vegetarian or vegan diet can very easily provide the right amounts of each food group. Based on this, how balanced is your idea of a healthy diet?

[Aractus]

So why are you so against it? You clearly are aware that it isn't actually unhealthy for most people. So some people need meat. Good for them. That has nothing to do with the people do don't need meat and/or don't want to eat meat.

Eating meat is not unhealthy for most people.

Vegetarians and vegans tend to live longer than people who eat meat.

That's a lie.

• There are an estimated 60,000 centenarians in the United States, 9,000 in the United Kingdom, and 3,000 here in Australia. Most are meat eaters and a few are vegetarian, but I’ve never heard of any who are vegan or fruitarian.
  In fact, in one of the world’s longest-running studies of authenticated centenarians ever undertaken, it was found that none of the participants were vegan, fruitarian or even vegetarian! The Okinawa Centenarian Study has been ongoing since 1976 and examined the lives of over 600 centenarians who were living their traditional lifestyle. Their diets included fish, pork, poultry, dairy products and eggs.
  
  Vegan Centenarians – Where Are They? by Brian White (2005)

That's not because we don't eat meat, but because we're generally more conscious of what we're eating than meat eaters, and the result is often a healthier diet. Now, if not eating meat was actively unhealthy for humans we wouldn't see this difference in life span because the deadly effects of the meatlessness would knock a few years off of us.

You don't see an improvement in lifespan, you've (or rather, others have) cherry picked data to say it supports your claim. Many people get sick on a vegan diet even under advice from vegan doctors and have to return to eating meat.

If you're actually interested in how healthy different diets are, I suggest you go and do some more research into the paleo diet and other high-protein diets. Specifically, the dangers of said diets, which I personally have read are linked to increased risk of heart disease and various cancers. One article I read suggested these diets can be as dangerous as smoking. So that might be an interesting one to look into.

I think we both agree that extreme of any type of diet are bad - for instance raw vegan is very bad for anyone and recognized as such. Paleo is a label that is as broad as the vegan label, but at its cores it's less restrictive than veganism - veganism excludes: fish, dairy, meat, eggs and paleo excludes: grains when an emphasis on eating vegetables in the place of grains. High-protein is rarely a problem, I don't even think it's been proven (it's very difficult to eat too much protein in particular) however high-carbs (vegan) can be, high fibre can certainly be, high sugar - obviously, and the low-carb diets are also bad. So obviously if you take it to an extreme it will be bad.

How does it fit in with an actual healthy diet?

Looking at this, I can see clearly where a vegetarian or vegan diet can very easily provide the right amounts of each food group. Based on this, how balanced is your idea of a healthy diet?

Well firstly, milk and dairy is not for everyone - it's for less than 50% of the world. Secondly, 50% of the world gets 50% of their calories from wheat, yet it should represent well less than this as you see on your plate.

I do have an aunt that has gluten intolerance, she can't eat bread, pasta, pastry, cereals, products containing soy, etc. That's why the paleo diet doesn't shock me, because I know that my aunt eats very well without that "food group". And it's the same for everyone who's gluten intolerant, they can't eat those foods.

[Rahul]

I'm not a proponent, but that's ridiculous. A paleo diet is basically "eat as if you're gluten intolerant". It's certainly not as extreme as veganism. Veganism excludes meat/fish/dairy/eggs from the diet (the foods that are most nutrient-rich), whereas paleo excludes grain (the food group that is most nutrient-poor). So to say that it's at the bottom of every kind of diet is a little misguided.

Well, I'm not a dietitian. I just read the occasional news article.

Paleo named worst diet of 2014 by U.S. News and World Report

http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../140109156

[psychoslice]

I think vegetarians are more healthy than a vegan diet, but what makes a vegetarian or vegan diet look better is the reason they usually live more healthy than most meat eaters, they usually don't smoke or drink and the rest of what can make us unhealthy. Now if you are a meat eater and you don't eat too much red meat, plus you don't smoke or drink too much, then there is no reason you cannot be as healthy as the vegetarian or vegan.

[Aractus]

I'm not a proponent, but that's ridiculous. A paleo diet is basically "eat as if you're gluten intolerant". It's certainly not as extreme as veganism. Veganism excludes meat/fish/dairy/eggs from the diet (the foods that are most nutrient-rich), whereas paleo excludes grain (the food group that is most nutrient-poor). So to say that it's at the bottom of every kind of diet is a little misguided.

Well, I'm not a dietitian. I just read the occasional news article.

Paleo named worst diet of 2014 by U.S. News and World Report

http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../140109156

Seems cherry-picked to me:

Paleo ...

• Nutrition:
  Score 2.0
  
  While its focus on veggies and lean meat is admirable, experts couldn't get past the fact that entire food groups, like dairy and grains, are excluded on Paleo diets. "The risk of nutrient deficiency is real, unless the person takes a multivitamin," one panelist commented. Here, its rating lagged a full two or more stars behind many other diets.

Vegan ...

• Nutrition:
  Score 2.8
  
  Veganism can conform to the federal government’s dietary recommendations—but it takes work to make sure it does. There is “little scientific evidence of an upside,” one expert said, and panelists worried that it doesn’t provide enough calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B12, zinc and iron. The diet requires ample planning in order to be nutritionally sound.

So why don't they level the same criticism against veganism? Also, it sounds like they're only reviewing the extreme paleo diets - some eat dairy and some don't.

But what does make sense is that the consumption of gluten is known to cause health problems for some people - even people who do not have a full intolerance. I can honestly say I don't know how it affects me since I've never gone on a gluten-free diet, but my aunt can't touch the stuff.

Personally I would not suggest the paleo diet, however if you want to exclude gluten from your life for a while and substitute gluten-containing grains for vegetables (and gluten-free alternatives), I'd say give it a try - I might even do that myself - there's no reason to eliminate the foods that don't contain gluten like rice though.

Here's what I ate for lunch today:

It would qualify as paleo-friendly and has: smoked chicken, garlic, onion, mushroom, carrot and pumpkin cooked in olive oil.

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Here's the Australian Guide:

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I can't even take it seriously. It's got the following items classified as "vegetables": 1. Corn - that's a grain, 2. Mushroom - that's a fungus, 3. Capsicum, Tomato, Broccoli/Cauliflower*, Pumpkin, Cucumber and Eggplant are all fruits not vegetables. In fact there's as much fruit as there is vegetable in that section.

*As we eat the flower of the plant, which is the seed bearing part of the plant, it has to be classified as a fruit.

[Coffee Jesus]

That's a lie.

• There are an estimated 60,000 centenarians in the United States, 9,000 in the United Kingdom, and 3,000 here in Australia. Most are meat eaters and a few are vegetarian, but I’ve never heard of any who are vegan or fruitarian.
  In fact, in one of the world’s longest-running studies of authenticated centenarians ever undertaken, it was found that none of the participants were vegan, fruitarian or even vegetarian! The Okinawa Centenarian Study has been ongoing since 1976 and examined the lives of over 600 centenarians who were living their traditional lifestyle. Their diets included fish, pork, poultry, dairy products and eggs.
  
  Vegan Centenarians – Where Are They? by Brian White (2005)

The vegans of generations past didn't know B12 was important.

Let's see how modern vegans fare?

http://nih.gov/researchmatters/june2013/...tarian.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

[Aractus]

http://nih.gov/researchmatters/june2013/...tarian.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23836264

That study is not real science. The results are skewed by the healthy worker effect, and furthermore they're obtained by data mining. Using these two principles you can "prove" that vegans anywhere are healthier, but it doesn't make it true. The study did not account for BMI or other factors - vegans have a lower BMI than the general population which on its own is a benefit. A proper comparison would be between vegans and meat eaters who are healthy weights. SDA's are vegetarian for religious reasons, the same with Hindus, the same with Buddhists.

Put simply that study just is not any good as science. Here is a recent study done in Austria:

• Nutrition and Health – The Association between Eating Behavior and Various Health Parameters: A Matched Sample Study
  Nathalie T. Burkert, Johanna Muckenhuber, Franziska Großschädl, Éva Rásky, Wolfgang Freidl
  
  Our results revealed that a vegetarian diet is related to a lower BMI and less frequent alcohol consumption. Moreover, our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life. Therefore, public health programs are needed in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors.
  
  

Despite the claims made by vegans there is still has not been a study that has shown that eating healthy amounts of meat, eggs, dairy and fish produces bad health.