Pro-life atheists

[A Theist]

There must be such a thing. After all, you don't have to believe in a god to stick up for the rights of the unborn.
Thoughts?

I know a few atheists who are pro-life. In fact, I know of a well recognized atheist who considers himself a "cultural" Christian, Richard Dawkins.

[Losty]

What baby?

What suffering?

What if I don't want it hanging out inside my body, sucking up up all of my nutrients that I need to survive, causing weight gain and muscle displacement, and risking my life in labor and delivery?

As the owner of my body, my view is that another beings right to live ends when it infringes on mine. What if a person was dying and the could survive by hooking up a mock umbilical cord to you and taking nutrients from your body? Should you be obligated to allow this because their life is as valuable as yours?
Also, being alive and being a baby is not the same thing.

How many children who have suffered unspeakable horrors and deaths at the hands of unloving parents could have been spared such pain and suffering if their mothers would have had abortions?


A 12 year old enduring a pregnancy and labor is dangerous and could potentially be completely traumatizing. I know you love your brother but one case is not an argument. How young, do you think, is too young to be expected to carry to term and risk her life delivering a baby so your feelings won't get hurt? What if she's nine and suffering PTSD after being continually raped and abused by some family member. Should she be forced to carry a reminder around for 10 months risking her life, because you think her fetus' life is just as valuable as hers?

PTSD is an extremely abused term, as a Service member diagnosed with it, I'd ask you to use it more wisely next time. I will take a 9 year old giving birth to watching brothers in arms being blown apart in front of you, watching your friend of many years dying before your eyes with limbs detached after being in an IED and coming home wondering why you made it out and he didn't, waking up screaming in the night, seeing the worst thing you can imagine reply in your mind over and over again, to the point where you try suicide.

I somehow for some reason don't buy into Civilian PTSD, Oh I was in a fender bender now I have PTSD or I gave birth an I have PTSD. I don't see them being in the same multiverse.

I'd say the rape would be more traumatic than the birth. Sorry if that offends you (Hope it doesn't infringe upon your life would not want to be killed off)

Anyway it throws you that you said what you said about your owning your body. What baby? funny? No baby, no need to kill anything. No need for an abortion then right?

But to say it deserves to end if it bothers you. That is a bit sad

Edit: as for the continual rape, remove them from the house, treat the trauma (obviously there will be some), but you are onto something, at that age I do believe it would be of danger to the child, so some things can be avoided so I will give you the abortion permit slip on that but doesn't correlate to my point.

Oh please, take a freaking chill pill. I have never had an abortion and I don't plan to. I don't like the idea, but I certainly don't think a clump of cells' right to life should trump a female's right to not be an incubator if she doesn't wish to be.

Regardless of your ignorant opinion, civilian PTSD is a real thing. I really hate that attitude, oh I've seen 'worse' so your suffering doesn't count seems pretty egotistical and self centered to me. I don't pretend to know your pain, you shouldn't pretend to know mine or anyone else's.

"Anyway it throws you that you said what you said about your owning your body. What baby? funny? No baby, no need to kill anything. No need for an abortion then right?"
This made me chuckle a little. And abortion is not the killing of a baby it's is the removal/killing of a fetus. No baby no need to kill anything? What about tumors what about cancer? What about other parasites? What if someone has tapeworms? Is that life as valuable as theirs? Would you still say no baby no need to kill anything? No baby no need to get rid of the tapeworms?

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Also, just to clarify (since it apparently was not obvious )
This:
As the owner of my body, my view is that another beings right to live ends when it infringes on mine.
Means that another being's right to live ends when that being infringes on my right to live.
Nowhere did I say that I believe I have a right to kill something just because it offends me.

[Ben Davis]

I have always been pro-life. My understanding is that no matter what the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy, bad or good, rape or not. That child that innocent baby had nothing to do with it.

This is true however you're falsely equating a clump of cells or an unfeeling, unthinking foetus with a baby. This is easy to do and can take some self-discipline to overcome (most of us are programmed to protect young, after all) but it's necessary in order to make sure you give the matter balanced consideration. The fact is that a foetus can't be considered a baby until it reaches viability (~24 weeks). If you want to argue regarding 'the potential' of the foetus to be a baby, you face the challenge that MFM made about having to consider sperm & eggs in the same light.

They are without blame, why place the blame of a rapist on a baby, wasn't that childs fault.

Once again with the continued false equivocation (foetus/baby) but I've covered that already. So on to the false transferrence of responsibility (the baby is being blamed for the rape). An abortion is not the mother 'blaming' the foetus in any respectable use of the term 'blame'. What happens instead is a series of complex psychological traumas (analogous to PTSD) which disconnects the woman from normal maternal instinct. In order to prevent further suffering and protect the mental well-being of the woman, it's often better to abort. In a large proportion of raped women who successfully give birth, the child (an actual baby/child/life) suffers neglect or abuse resulting from the maternal disconnect. By arguing in favour of forcing raped women to give birth, you're actually arguing in favour of increased child abuse.

Why should it suffer?

As MFM said, there's no such thing as a foetus sufferring before ~18 weeks as there hasn't yet been enough development.

There is always adoption. Don't want it, give it to someone who cannot have a child, who's spent a fortune on having kids without success.

This is true however this view still doesn't take in to account the suffering of the woman/mother.

As a Buddhist, (moderately monastic) the view is that life begins at conception and all life is valuable.

Okay but why should your belief be allowed to result in human suffering?

My dear kid brother, would not be here had his 12 year old mother aborted him. She had him, gave him up for adoption. In doing so my mother and I have had the pleasure of having him in our lives (my adopted family could not have children)

Then it sounds like your mother made the right decision, in this case. However you need to consider what might have happened if circumstances had been different. What if abortion had been the right thing to do? What if your mother or brother would have suffered, unnecessarily as a result of taking the pregnancy to term? Can you think of circumstances in which your mother would have preferred to have an abortion? These questions are necessary in order to empathise with women who are faced with that choice. It's worth remembering that one case where things 'work out for the best' isn't enough to seriously challenge the right to choose.

All in all, I'd prefer a world where abortion is unnecessary, where child welfare is a high priority for governments and societies, where rape is unheard of, where prospective parents aren't forced to choose between 'financial realities' and having a child. However that's not this world. It's an ideal worth fighting for but it doesn't divorce you from the necessary considerations of our current society.

[KUSA]

As the owner of my body, my view is that another beings right to live ends when it infringes on mine.

That's good stuff right there. I'm gonna use that line in the second amendment thread.

[Losty]

As the owner of my body, my view is that another beings right to live ends when it infringes on mine.

That's good stuff right there. I'm gonna use that line in the second amendment thread.

Well if what you mean is that you have a right to defend your life when someone is trying to infringe or your right to live then yes.

[Minimalist]

As the owner of my body, my view is that another beings right to live ends when it infringes on mine.

That's good stuff right there. I'm gonna use that line in the second amendment thread.

Just remember that it applies to the bullets, as well.


I'm pro-choice without restrictions. In fact, I don't think it is any of your damn business what someone else does with her own body.

[rexbeccarox]

This thread is only two pages in and I'm hopping mad. Blacksword, your holier-than-thou attitude about abortion and PTSD is reprehensible. I've officially decided you have nothing of value to contribute. You might rethink your positions as a. a fetus is not a baby, and even it if were, you have no right to tell anyone what they can or can't do with their bodies, and b. you have no evidence to back up your claim that only the military can have PTSD. I don't think you could get much more shortsighted. Fuck me, I'm pissed.

Thanks to Losty and Ben Davis for making great points while keeping your heads cool. I wish I was a good enough person to be able to do so.

[vorlon13]

When talking with the christers, I enjoy asking about ensoulment in regards to fetuses. In the atheist orbit, I don't know why there would be only the one viewpoint.

[Losty]

This thread is only two pages in and I'm hopping mad. Blacksword, your holier-than-thou attitude about abortion and PTSD is reprehensible. I've officially decided you have nothing of value to contribute. You might rethink your positions as a. a fetus is not a baby, and even it if were, you have no right to tell anyone what they can or can't do with their bodies, and b. you have no evidence to back up your claim that only the military can have PTSD. I don't think you could get much more shortsighted. Fuck me, I'm pissed.

Thanks to Losty and Ben Davis for making great points while keeping your heads cool. I wish I was a good enough person to be able to do so.

I just think it's so offensive, I had to force myself to stay calm so I could make my point. I don't think Blacksword really thinks he knows more about PTSD than my doctor. I think the truth is that he is self absorbed and lacks empathy. It must be a sad life when you have to be pro life to make yourself feel like a better person, because you don't know how to be compassionate towards real people.

[Esquilax]

As a Buddhist, (moderately monastic) the view is that life begins at conception and all life is valuable.

Cool, so you've got a view about when life begins that's ideologically driven and doesn't jive with known scientific facts: do you really think that's a good enough basis for public policy? Are we just to use your fantasies, or does everyone else get a go on the "let's turn my non-factual dreams into a reality!" process?