A Serious Question For Theists

[Confused Ape]

You don't have to assume a deity exists before you can demonstrate its existence. You must experience his existence before you can demonstrate it.

Copied from a topic I made - My New Age Perception - - The Goddess Is "Real

Today is May Day so I switched over to "New Age Perception". It's like I'm aware of the planet as a living entity. I also have an inner image of the Venus of Willendorf. This is just one of several Venus Figurines from the Upper Paleolithic period. Nobody knows what the figururines meant to the people who made them but modern Goddess worshippers have adopted the Willendorf figure as a symbol of the Great Mother Goddess. My unconscious mind decided to use it as well. It's not something I'd have consciously chosen, however, because I think it's grotesque.

I had a related experience when I visited the Anglican Shrine Of Our Lady Of Walsingham. When I was in the Church and Holy House I was aware of a powerful female presence but she was far older than Christianity.

Some years ago I had a dream about Apollo - he had an awesome presence and, in the dream, I knew he was a god.

I could claim that I've experienced The Goddess and Apollo but there's no way I could demonstrate it because the experiences were purely subjective. They were produced by my brain.

[Bob Kelso]

Then stop asking for proof or evidence from Christians, this thing works for both sides of the debate. I think you are embarrassed to show us what you use to do, we're not so why should you, or are you bending to peer pressure, this is for all the former believers.

GC

What kind of "evidence" are you looking for here GC? What beliefs they held? Their church attendance? How often they prayed? How often they cursed? Who they fucked? How big their shits were, etc.?

Why don't you specify your criteria for what makes a "True Christian" instead of beating around the bush and acting like a superior fuckwad?

[Godscreated]

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Then stop trying to tell us you believed and show us what you were doing while you were a believer, details please. Many here have claimed to be former believers yet give no evidence to prove their statements, why? Are you afraid to be scrutinized by the very scriptures you once believed.

GC

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Tell you what, GC, I'll make you a deal: you lay out a series of specific, detailed and unambiguous conditions for "True Christendom" that have no basis in personal interpretation, your opinion, or exclusively your denomination's beliefs, and I'll see how many ex-believers I can encourage to share their previous beliefs.

That's only fair, really: knowing the criteria ahead of time stops you from moving the goalposts later, and will demonstrate early whether or not you're trying to bootstrap "godschild's personal beliefs" into the title of "True Christian," and cutting out your personal preferences and interpretations only makes sense. After all, you said believer, not specifically of your particular church. I'd assume, after all, that you hold christians of other stripes in higher regard, religiously speaking, than an atheist? At least, you recognize that they are believers, even if they're doing it wrong?

Let's see how this conversation goes when we add a little accountability onto the would-be interrogator, shall we?

The answer is no, I know that it's peer pressure that causes these former believers not to reveal what they did, their afraid of being embarrassed. Deals are not part of a discussion and I wasn't looking to put anyone down, I wanted to see if these people actually tried. You see they should do this because they have their own courage, not because you convinced them to. Actually I would be offended by your proposal to convince me to speak up, who do you believe you are that you have control or authority over these who say they once believed. They are their own persons and can decide for themselves. If they do refuse it will give Christians grounds to doubt their sincerity, I've shared my pre-Christian past without a care as what other Christians thought, why since I did is it such a big deal for the former believers. You talk about moving the goal post, if I were to present a set of conditions then the former believers could move their goal post to meet the conditions, so once again No.

GC

[Tonus]

I don't think it should really be a mystery. I was raised a Christian, so I did all of the standard things- behaved in line with Christ's teachings, prayed every day, read the Bible regularly, went to religious services regularly, and so on. I behaved, not as one who was seeking god, but as one who had found him and followed him faithfully. This is pretty much the way I noticed that most Christians (JWs or otherwise) lived their lives; they knew that god was a part of their lives and developed what they felt was a real relationship with god.

It's only for those who leave religion and stop believing in god that some line is drawn. It was long after I began to have any kind of doubts that I finally accepted my current views; for many years I simply rejected the notion that god did not exist, even as my faith was falling away. But for a good 25-30 years I lived with no doubt at all and all of the biases that come with believing in god. If there was something that I missed, I don't know what it was.

[Godscreated]

Then stop asking for proof or evidence from Christians, this thing works for both sides of the debate. I think you are embarrassed to show us what you use to do, we're not so why should you, or are you bending to peer pressure, this is for all the former believers.

GC

What kind of "evidence" are you looking for here GC? What beliefs they held? Their church attendance? How often they prayed? How often they cursed? Who they fucked? How big their shits were, etc.?

Why don't you specify your criteria for what makes a "True Christian" instead of beating around the bush and acting like a superior fuckwad?

You want to have discussions with me you'll need to use better language.

---

I don't think it should really be a mystery. I was raised a Christian, so I did all of the standard things- behaved in line with Christ's teachings, prayed every day, read the Bible regularly, went to religious services regularly, and so on. I behaved, not as one who was seeking god, but as one who had found him and followed him faithfully. This is pretty much the way I noticed that most Christians (JWs or otherwise) lived their lives; they knew that god was a part of their lives and developed what they felt was a real relationship with god.

It's only for those who leave religion and stop believing in god that some line is drawn. It was long after I began to have any kind of doubts that I finally accepted my current views; for many years I simply rejected the notion that god did not exist, even as my faith was falling away. But for a good 25-30 years I lived with no doubt at all and all of the biases that come with believing in god. If there was something that I missed, I don't know what it was.

Thank you for your response, but I wonder does anyone wanting to know God in a more meaningful way ever stop seeking. To me following is very good, it leads to experiences with others that could not be gained in any other way and grows one in character. However to seek God continually would be to know Him in deeper personal ways, ways that keeps one strong in their belief of who God is.

GC

[Bob Kelso]

You want to have discussions with me you'll need to use better language.

Did I upset your tender sensibilities? I was not looking for a dialogue there, GC, I was pointing out that you're being an idiot, but if you want niceties and dialogue then sure;

You want evidence that someone used to be a Christian? Get real mate. I usually know a setup for a No True Scotsman when I see it. If it isn't a set-up, and you're genuinely looking to find out what someone believed when they identified as a Christian, then the following quote from you isn't the way to go about it;

Then stop trying to tell us you believed and show us what you were doing while you were a believer, details please. Many here have claimed to be former believers yet give no evidence to prove their statements, why? Are you afraid to be scrutinized by the very scriptures you once believed.

GC

^ You see that mess? You're being what the rest of us call a condescending dick. Try not doing that in the future if you're looking for personal information and discourse, and learn to take "no" as an answer when it comes to any kind of personal info.

Now I'm very rarely nice to the resident theists such as yourself, but frankly, that's because you never post anything worthwhile. Same old song and dance, looped on repeat across different stations is all.

I'll make you a deal, you or the other theists make a post that isn't worth less than a pile of dung and I'll be as sweet as cherry pie dearie.

[Rampant.A.I.]

Proverbs 16:5 ESV

Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

Proverbs 26:12 ESV

Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Timothy 6:4 ESV

He is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

[Jackalope]

Then stop asking for proof or evidence from Christians, this thing works for both sides of the debate. I think you are embarrassed to show us what you use to do, we're not so why should you, or are you bending to peer pressure, this is for all the former believers.

GC

I ask for evidence of claims that others would seek to convince myself or others are true.

As I have no interest whatsoever in convincing you or anyone else of my former status as a theist, I have zero burden of proof. I don't care what you believe about it.

You really don't understand where such things as burden of proof are applicable.

[Jackalope]

The answer is no, I know that it's peer pressure that causes these former believers not to reveal what they did, their afraid of being embarrassed.

You know no such fucking thing, GC. If any of my friends here ask, those who don't have an agenda, I'd be happy to tell them all about it. I might even tell you, if you asked nicely and I thought you were being sincere.

I'm not the least bit embarrassed about it. Hell, I voted for G.W. Bush the first time around. You think that's not embarrassing, considering where my politics are today?

What I won't do is give personal details in public forum to someone who appears to be likely to play games moving goalposts and playing the No True Christian fallacy card. Drich and others have done it to me on more than one occasion, and I'm not playing that game, not now, not ever.

[Godscreated]

The answer is no, I know that it's peer pressure that causes these former believers not to reveal what they did, their afraid of being embarrassed.

You know no such fucking thing, GC. If any of my friends here ask, those who don't have an agenda, I'd be happy to tell them all about it. I might even tell you, if you asked nicely and I thought you were being sincere.

I'm not the least bit embarrassed about it. Hell, I voted for G.W. Bush the first time around. You think that's not embarrassing, considering where my politics are today?

What I won't do is give personal details in public forum to someone who appears to be likely to play games moving goalposts and playing the No True Christian fallacy card. Drich and others have done it to me on more than one occasion, and I'm not playing that game, not now, not ever.

Fine, just do not expect me to believe you were ever a Christian. There was no agenda as you could see if you had read my reply to Tonus, also I'm not Drich or others.

GC