Discussion w/ a Theist RE: Premarital Sex

[bennyboy]

Yes, unprotected heterosexual sex leads to these things in humans. But that doesn't make premarital sex bad as long as you know what you're doing. Besides, what is your solution here? Mine would be more education.

I think the Asians have it right. There doesn't need to be an inalienable right for 16 year-old girls to get into a car with friends, go out until late at night, have a boyfriend, etc. The solution is obvious-- a stronger nuclear family that stays together longer, and less individual freedom for teens.

Remember that you're not preparing a high-school student for real life-- work force, getting married in the early 20s, etc. You're preparing a kid after about 12 years of school to go off and do maybe another 9 or 10 years. There's no need for them to rush off into romance and early sexual encounters, because the real deal is still way off on the horizon.

[StealthySkeptic]

Yes, unprotected heterosexual sex leads to these things in humans. But that doesn't make premarital sex bad as long as you know what you're doing. Besides, what is your solution here? Mine would be more education.

I think the Asians have it right. There doesn't need to be an inalienable right for 16 year-old girls to get into a car with friends, go out until late at night, have a boyfriend, etc. The solution is obvious-- a stronger nuclear family that stays together longer, and less individual freedom for teens.

Remember that you're not preparing a high-school student for real life-- work force, getting married in the early 20s, etc. You're preparing a kid after about 12 years of school to go off and do maybe another 9 or 10 years. There's no need for them to rush off into romance and early sexual encounters, because the real deal is still way off on the horizon.

A strong nuclear family? Look, the whole idea of nuclear family is but one of many family models that can work. And I think the thing is that if you try to force teens to not have sex, they'll have it anyway but they won't know what the fuck they're doing. Hopefully as a parent you would raise them with a good head on their shoulders to at the very least wait until they're 18 and know how to be safe.

[bennyboy]

A strong nuclear family? Look, the whole idea of nuclear family is but one of many family models that can work. And I think the thing is that if you try to force teens to not have sex, they'll have it anyway but they won't know what the fuck they're doing. Hopefully as a parent you would raise them with a good head on their shoulders to at the very least wait until they're 18 and know how to be safe.

Your idea about teens is wrong. In Asia, most teens do not have sex, and they turn out fine. The idea that it's inevitable is contingent on the attitudes of a society which is geared toward mating rituals that worked when a young man would start apprentice work at the ripe old age of about 17.

You can say that any system can work, but then you have to look at the shitstorm that is US teen pregnancy and disease rates, and see that liberty in teenage years works for some but fails on the level of society.

[Chad32]

The highest rates of teen pregnancy and such tend to be in abstinence only areas. Teenagers are all about breaking out on their own, and becoming their own people. Finding out who they really are. Trying to keep them contained will only make it worse.

And what's this nine or ten more years of education? I get a four year college after you get out of highschool at about eighteen, but nine or ten?

Biology really doesn't care that we're about to live into our eighties and nineties nowadays. It still drives us really hard to have sex in our teens and early twenties. Of course allowing masturbation could help alleviate that somewhat, but some of these religious areas don't want any contact with sexual organs aside from bathing until you're married. Although nothing kept me from jacking off in the shower, besides my parents asking why I'm taking so long.

[bennyboy]

The highest rates of teen pregnancy and such tend to be in abstinence only areas.

I'm still trying to figure out the difference between that and Korea, where there are a LOT of bona fide virgins. Maybe it's because the guys are such sissies that the girls just never get the Chevy Impala backseat challenge.

[Chad32]

Or maybe in some places they will kill you if they find out you're an unmarried virgin.

[Angrboda]

Plenty of animals, including of course humans, have sex for other reasons including pleasure, but chief among them, especially with such great apes as bonobos (where about 60% of sexual contact is female-female), is social bonding.

Yes, but bonobos presumably aren't devastated by an unexpected pregnancy, and don't have to travel to blue states in order to get bonobo abortions. They probably won't lose the chance to go to bonobo universities, get bonobo jobs, and fully enjoy their bonobo lives. If any of those things were true, then a bonobo might also want to think about whether sex at a young age is really worth it.

Actually, I suspect bonobos face many of the same risks that a human mother does. After the early stages of pregnancy, risk of death or complications rises dramatically. The bonobos female likely faces the same risks.

[bennyboy]

Or maybe in some places they will kill you if they find out you're an unmarried virgin.

You keep saying ignorant shit about this. Are you trolling, or are you trying to make an actual point?

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Actually, I suspect bonobos face many of the same risks that a human mother does. After the early stages of pregnancy, risk of death or complications rises dramatically. The bonobos female likely faces the same risks.

I'm not sure if the sexual behavior results in orgasms or ejaculation, or if its just an "oochie oochie" motion that they do.

I don't think most animals have the same risk of death or complications-- human women are especially poorly adapted to delivery it seems to me.

[Chad32]

Or maybe in some places they will kill you if they find out you're an unmarried virgin.

You keep saying ignorant shit about this. Are you trolling, or are you trying to make an actual point?

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Actually, I suspect bonobos face many of the same risks that a human mother does. After the early stages of pregnancy, risk of death or complications rises dramatically. The bonobos female likely faces the same risks.

I'm not sure if the sexual behavior results in orgasms or ejaculation, or if its just an "oochie oochie" motion that they do.

I don't think most animals have the same risk of death or complications-- human women are especially poorly adapted to delivery it seems to me.

I just don't really buy what you're saying.

I think women actually are poorly adapted for delivery. Laying on her back in a bed to give birth doesn't help either.

[bennyboy]

Are you quoting me or rasetsu? Because it sounds like you are agreeing with me.