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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 11:36 am
Christians still oppress everyone who does and doesn't want to worship god to this day. That doesn't really explain anything. Yahweh would kill or order the killing of people who didn't follow the law all the time. If Jesus just wanted us to be good people and not worry about the law, then why is faith important? Jesus ridicules the Pharisees, but given passages like the one about stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day, is it so hard to belief some people would demand the letter of the law be followed?
Jesus was almost a completely different person from Yahweh anyway. Connecting the two together just makes the book even more confusing.
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 11:48 am
(September 2, 2014 at 11:36 am)Chad32 Wrote: Christians still oppress everyone who does and doesn't want to worship god to this day. without any arguement certain expressions of christianity do. But not all.
Quote:That doesn't really explain anything.
Take another look at the ministry of Christ He spent the majority of his time rebuking the religious leaders for doing what you said does not explain anything.. It would seem to me that Christ saw this hypocritical following of the law, but keeping one heart in evil as being a pretty big deal to Him.. Matter of fact this was the reason they had Him crusified.
Quote:Yahweh would kill or order the killing of people who didn't follow the law all the time.
What do you think Hell is? It is the NT equilivent of the OT death penality.
Quote: If Jesus just wanted us to be good people and not worry about the law, then why is faith important?
Again, only a very small measure of it is. In short to place faith in God is to humble yourself before him. It is to take the pride out of one's religious walk.
Quote: Jesus ridicules the Pharisees, but given passages like the one about stoning a man to death for picking up sticks on the wrong day, is it so hard to belief some people would demand the letter of the law be followed?
Later in the NT Paul speaks to the brothers who can't get use to the idea of religious freedom. He says if you think it is a sin to do 'X' even if we have been freed from that practice then for you it is a sin.
Christ himself was recorded in saying "What ever you bind here on Earth, will be bound in Heaven, and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven." Meaning what ever you consider to be law will be considered law.
Quote:Jesus was almost a completely different person from Yahweh anyway. Connecting the two together just makes the book even more confusing.
The Father's standards are still in play. What Christ did was to take the punishment for every sin. Meaning we do not have to feel the imediate effects of sin under this New Covenant.[/quote]
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 11:54 am
Hell is not the NT equivalent of the OT death penalty. Nowhere in the OT does it say you get tortured after you're killed.
Big enough to cause multiple wars, among other things.
What immediate effects of sin would that be, anyway?
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Re: RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 12:17 pm
(September 2, 2014 at 10:14 am)Chad32 Wrote: Why would a benevolent deity declare those good works filthy rags, and sentence the guy to hell because he said the wrong name during prayers?
Because God is like a petty jealous girlfriend.
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 12:30 pm
(This post was last modified: September 2, 2014 at 12:30 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 2, 2014 at 11:31 am)Drich Wrote: The answer to this lies in the illustrations and examples he made of the pharrisees. In their case they live a life perfect in accordance to the law, and performed every single work perscribed. Ah, good law abiding folks, okay, okay.
Quote:But, their haerts were far from God.
Thought crime, don't give a shit.
Quote:They used the law as a weapon to opress and enslave those who wanted to worship God.
Good thing we have better laws now eh? Sounds shitty.
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 2:22 pm
(This post was last modified: September 2, 2014 at 2:23 pm by Mudhammam.)
(September 2, 2014 at 10:05 am)Drich Wrote: IF you want understanding of the things of God and not simply go through the motions, you Must seek the Holy Spirit first.
The way I read this, is that "works-based" religions allow for a person to be "saved," while yours offers no possibility. I say it's impossible because you're proposing that in order to obtain belief (unless God predetermines salvation), an unbeliever must believe, a contradiction between the subject and the predicate.
As I suggested in my OP, I don't think I choose to believe or disbelief any given proposition. I'm coerced by the sensibility of its internal reasoning and the external evidence that weighs for/against it
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 3:19 pm
(This post was last modified: September 2, 2014 at 3:20 pm by Esquilax.)
(September 2, 2014 at 2:22 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: As I suggested in my OP, I don't think I choose to believe or disbelief any given proposition. I'm coerced by the sensibility of its internal reasoning and the external evidence that weighs for/against it
And if anyone is tempted to argue against this, might I suggest that alternatively, you just choose to believe that you don't have an account on this forum instead? 
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm
Quote:Yes. Luther suffered a lot from worrying about whether he was a 'good enough' Christian.
He wasn't. He was just another dick.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm
Quote:Martin Luther's dirty little book:
On the Jews and their lies
Of course he did not invent anti-semitism. It had a long history in Europe long before Luther came along to throw gasoline on the fire.
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 4:30 pm
(This post was last modified: September 2, 2014 at 4:40 pm by Drich.)
(September 2, 2014 at 11:54 am)Chad32 Wrote: Hell is not the NT equivalent of the OT death penalty. Nowhere in the OT does it say you get tortured after you're killed.
Big enough to cause multiple wars, among other things.
What immediate effects of sin would that be, anyway?
No where in the NT does it say that Hell is meant to be eternal touture for us either. Hell repersents the death of the soul.
The wage or result of sin is Death.
(September 2, 2014 at 2:22 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: The way I read this, is that "works-based" religions allow for a person to be "saved," while yours offers no possibility. Through your own efforts yes!
Salvation is a gift, not something that can be earned.
Quote:I say it's impossible because you're proposing that in order to obtain belief (unless God predetermines salvation), an unbeliever must believe, a contradiction between the subject and the predicate.
Nuupe. I am saying something simliar to what Christ himself said. In that we all excercize faith in whatever we believe. 'That it takes the smallest amount of faith to move mountains of doubt.'
Quote:As I suggested in my OP, I don't think I choose to believe or disbelief any given proposition. I'm coerced by the sensibility of its internal reasoning and the external evidence that weighs for/against it
Actually you like most religious or not default to a general comfirmation bias and seek to plug in anything that supports what you already believe and ignore the rest.
Which is very ironic given this is what Christians are accused of doing all the time.. Just FYI this is a human condition and not limited to Christianity.[/quote]
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RE: Faith and Works
September 2, 2014 at 4:41 pm
(September 2, 2014 at 4:30 pm)Drich Wrote: (September 2, 2014 at 11:54 am)Chad32 Wrote: Hell is not the NT equivalent of the OT death penalty. Nowhere in the OT does it say you get tortured after you're killed.
Big enough to cause multiple wars, among other things.
What immediate effects of sin would that be, anyway?
No where in the NT does it say that Hell is meant to be eternal touture for us either. Hell repersents the death of the soul.
The wage or result of sin is Death.
Yet somehow I and most mainstream christians were taught that it was. Plus how is "death of the soul" supposed to convert an atheist anyway? we don't even believe souls exist.
Death is the result of life. It happens to everyone.
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