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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 5:21 am
(January 27, 2015 at 12:17 am)Godschild Wrote: (January 26, 2015 at 2:48 pm)IanHulett Wrote: Hey guys. I know I've chosen to post this question, but how do I know if whether or not I have been preprogrammed to post this? It's not like I can go back in time to rethink my decision and choose another option. Does free will actually exist? Are all our actions just a product of time? Is there a way to actually test if whether or not we have free will? Thanks a bunch.
This is probably a stereotypical question (maybe even viewed as dumb by some), however I want to know what your thoughts are on the subject anyway.
Since free will on this site is exclusively discussed with religion in mind I'll address it that way. Just because a moral system dictates the way one should act doesn't mean one has to responded to it. If one is commanded to be a suicide bomber, commanding one first of all says the one has a choice, the choice can be accepted or rejected. God commands through the scriptures one should not practice homosexual acts, that doesn't mean there are no homosexuals, to the contrary, a commandment wouldn't be necessary if there were none. One has the right to accept this command or reject it. The law of this country and the law in scriptures say do not murder, one has the choice to or not murder, people are not destined to be murders, if they were why would there be a command not to murder. If we knew people were predestined to murder or not there would be no need for the command. Commandments and law says free will exists.
GC
The trouble (for your position) is that free will cannot possibly exist in light of an omnimax God.
If God is omnicreative, then he created my choices and the outcomes of those choices. Which shoe I put on first, whom I marry, what job I have, whether I take my tea with sugar - all these acts are predetermined.
If God is omniscient, then God knows - and always has done - what my choices will be. The only way in which I can operate freely is to do something which God cannot possibly have foreseen.
If God is omnibenevolent, then no one could commit acts which would lead to damnation: God would have created only those choices which would lead to salvation.
If God is omnipotent, then free choices would only be those which are outside the scope of divine power.
It's just not on, GC. If you insist that you have free will, then the God of Abraham must, of necessity, be unable to create or foresee what we do. In such a case, God is not God. Since you and your ilk insist that God is as described above, free will cannot exist in the context of such a God.
Sleep well.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 6:16 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 7:00 am by h4ym4n.)
Bravo Boru. 
If God knows before I'm concieved that after my life is over I WILL be going to hell whether I want to go FREEly or not.
godschild, god does know my final destination right now at this very moment?
How do you change a gods mind if it's omniscience?
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 6:27 am
Godschild, I have one simple question:
“Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The Omnipotence to
Change His future mind?”
[quoted from Karen Owens]
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 10:58 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 10:59 am by Godscreated.)
(January 27, 2015 at 6:16 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Bravo Boru.
If God knows before I'm concieved that after my life is over I WILL be going to hell whether I want to go FREEly or not.
godschild, god does know my final destination right now at this very moment?
How do you change a gods mind if it's omniscience?
It was never in God's plan for you to go to hell, your choices make that happen. Yes God knows the finial decisions you'll make, you do not, and you may be going to heaven before all is said and done. God's mind is all could be saved, your mind and heart is what determines your finial destination, it's your mind and heart that has to be changed.
GC
(January 27, 2015 at 6:27 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Godschild, I have one simple question:
“Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The Omnipotence to
Change His future mind?”
[quoted from Karen Owens]
Stop deflecting the OP is about man's free will.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 11:22 am
(January 27, 2015 at 10:58 am)Godschild Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 6:16 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Bravo Boru.
If God knows before I'm concieved that after my life is over I WILL be going to hell whether I want to go FREEly or not.
godschild, god does know my final destination right now at this very moment?
How do you change a gods mind if it's omniscience?
It was never in God's plan for you to go to hell, your choices make that happen. Yes God knows the finial decisions you'll make, you do not, and you may be going to heaven before all is said and done. God's mind is all could be saved, your mind and heart is what determines your finial destination, it's your mind and heart that has to be changed.
GC
GC, did god know my final destination BEFORE I was conceived?
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 11:27 am
(This post was last modified: January 27, 2015 at 11:31 am by Alex K.)
(January 27, 2015 at 10:58 am)Godschild Wrote: It was never in God's plan for you to go to hell, your choices make that happen. Yes God knows the finial decisions you'll make, you do not,
It is absolutely unfathomable to me how you can keep these two ideas in your head at the same time and still think it makes any sense. You must actively discourage yourself from thinking about any of this, I can't explain it otherwise. If the creator God knows our final decisions, they are predetermined by Him, we have no free will and no choice, and he knowingly creates the individuals already marked for suffering in hell. What a perverse God, what an inconsistent world view.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 12:17 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 5:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 12:17 am)Godschild Wrote:
The trouble (for your position) is that free will cannot possibly exist in light of an omnimax God.
Where did you come up with the claim that God's omnimax, a little evidence please.
Quote:If God is omnicreative, then he created my choices and the outcomes of those choices. Which shoe I put on first, whom I marry, what job I have, whether I take my tea with sugar - all these acts are predetermined.
First you say God's omnimax and without evidence, then you say if God is omnicreative, seems you are confused. Now where did you find the evidence that God created you with a completely planned life. If He did why are there commandments, not to do certain things, you are being very illogical.
Quote:If God is omniscient, then God knows - and always has done - what my choices will be. The only way in which I can operate freely is to do something which God cannot possibly have foreseen.
Foreseeing a persons actions doesn't in any way mean said person did not make a free choice. If what you are say is true it means I have control of what you say, I knew if you responded to what I said you would deflect using tired old arguments, that makes you predictable, it doesn't make me omniscient.
Quote:If God is omnibenevolent, then no one could commit acts which would lead to damnation: God would have created only those choices which would lead to salvation.
Again you need to stop deflecting and give evidence God is omnibenevolent. How is what you say remotely love, love doesn't restrain choice. If you're married is that the way you treat your spouse, I wouldn't think so, you wouldn't be married if you did, taking away choice is not based on love.
Quote:If God is omnipotent, then free choices would only be those which are outside the scope of divine power.
Really, according to who, you. Here you go again, you say God is omnimax, then turn around and say if he's omnipotent, you say things just to fit your POV, not reality.
Quote:It's just not on, GC. If you insist that you have free will, then the God of Abraham must, of necessity, be unable to create or foresee what we do. In such a case, God is not God. Since you and your ilk insist that God is as described above, free will cannot exist in the context of such a God.
Sleep well.
Boru
Your description of God falls short....no it's totally what you want it to be and it's totally wrong. God didn't create us to be robots and yes He's foreseen all, He however doesn't make your decisions, if He did you would be on your way to heaven at sometime in the future. But for all you know that may still be your destination.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 12:21 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 12:17 pm)Godschild Wrote: Foreseeing a persons actions doesn't in any way mean said person did not make a free choice.
It depends on how you define free choice, but that's beside the point. The relevant point is that the creator, in his function as the creator, has then predetermined this choice.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 12:39 pm
(January 27, 2015 at 11:27 am)Alex K Wrote: (January 27, 2015 at 10:58 am)Godschild Wrote: It was never in God's plan for you to go to hell, your choices make that happen. Yes God knows the finial decisions you'll make, you do not,
It is absolutely unfathomable to me how you can keep these two ideas in your head at the same time and still think it makes any sense. You must actively discourage yourself from thinking about any of this, I can't explain it otherwise. If the creator God knows our final decisions, they are predetermined by Him, we have no free will and no choice, and he knowingly creates the individuals already marked for suffering in hell. What a perverse God, what an inconsistent world view.
Could be I'm smart than you are, huh. I have no problem with foreknowledge and free will, the problem you have with it is this, you need someone to blame and so you twist things around about God to get you to that point. No one here has ever given any reasonable reason why God would predetermine a persons future, no evidence to why He would, nothing other than your saying He does. Know what, that carries no authority, none at all, just a bunch of hogwash. Tell me if God had predetermined everyone's future, then why do we have commandments that we should follow, by necessity if we are predestined they would not be necessary because we couldn't obey and/or disobey. Stop deflecting and respond with something reasonable.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 27, 2015 at 12:46 pm
GC, before I was conceived, did god know what my final eternal destination would be?
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