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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 1:32 am
Hey wiploc, this is devolving into a pseudo-argument for the existence of god that, as I said earlier, I was not trying to propose. Let me return to the crux of the matter:
I am a simpleton. Can you please help me see the contradiction which YOU see in the following two propositions?
1) If there ever was a moment in which no thing whatsoever existed, then no thing whatsoever will ever exist.
2) Some existing thing caused the existence of all other existing things.
You say there is a contradiction, and that both cannot be true at the same time. Can you help me out? I don't see the contradiction.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 4:51 am
(February 23, 2015 at 1:32 am)Ignorant Wrote: Hey wiploc, this is devolving into a pseudo-argument for the existence of god that, as I said earlier, I was not trying to propose. Let me return to the crux of the matter:
I am a simpleton. Can you please help me see the contradiction which YOU see in the following two propositions?
1) If there ever was a moment in which no thing whatsoever existed, then no thing whatsoever will ever exist.
2) Some existing thing caused the existence of all other existing things.
You say there is a contradiction, and that both cannot be true at the same time. Can you help me out? I don't see the contradiction.
Not exactly a contradiction, but problem with premise 2 is that it's not the only possibility. It could be several things that have always existed.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 5:34 am
That's true, Irrational. Like I've said several times already, it is an article of revealed faith. It does not contradict reason, but it is also not in inescapable conclusion of reason either. So the two don't contradict? Good. Thanks!
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 5:55 am
What is revealed faith?
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 7:27 am
(February 23, 2015 at 1:15 am)Irrational Wrote: We seem to differ on how each of us conceives of "nothing". You seem to be saying that "void" is a "nothing", and that's a fair statement to make, but when I read about being in a cube of "nothing" and observing "nothing", I'm unable to see how this is actually a "nothing".
I'll agree that the closest to "nothing" in reality would be something like what you're referring to.
The beauty of this is that it is a thought experiment, if you do imagine a total void then it works just as well as if you imagine a quantum vacuum. The symmetry is still there.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 8:16 am
Hey, robvalue! Excellent question.
Before I answer it, how is it relevant to the thread topic?
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 8:49 am
Thanks. I just wanted to understand your post, as I've not heard those two words combined before. So I'd rather not guess at what it means.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 9:44 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 10:46 am by Mudhammam.)
(February 22, 2015 at 6:09 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Well, no, that isn't what I meant, but you are certainly free to put it that way if you like! But I'm confused. I thought the authors of the bible were iron-age, myth-making idiots who thought the sky was really a dome of water and that the earth was a giant disc and made up irrational stories about a god to make sense of the world? Now they are philosophizing myth-making idiots who borrow ideas from other cultures? What a promotion! =)
Seriously though, I only meant to suggest that god, as the monotheistic traditions present him as having revealed himself, has this trait. Ah, you didn't understand; my apologies if i wasn't clear. You seem to think that the Bible makes a declarative statement about the monotheistic deity of later tradition that philosophical arguments, as you say, can be stated so as to be made compatible with. That's probably the lens through which you read the texts. However, the ancient Hebrews didn't dispute that there were other gods for other nations, they just didn't believe that these gods were comparable to their own---Yahweh---who had chosen them. Monotheism was later adapted, the arguments for such being molded by the philosophers, and utilized by the myth-makers whose deity began to appear less anthropomorphic and more of the detached metaphysical monster that the "intellectual theologians" advocate today.
When I said "ancient" I'm pretty much referring to everything prior to the Dark Ages, or about the sixth century. Your Christian monotheism (which the Muslims rightly say isn't really) looks very different from your Jewish monotheism, and your Jewish monotheism looks very different when the Bible is first starting to be written in the 8th century B.C.E. Western philosophy began with Thales in the 6th century and I presume Eastern philosophy slightly predates that (can anyone confirm or deny?).
But no doubt the authors of the Bible were iron age goat-herders who borrowed from other cultures; and they certainly weren't all that philosophical, which is why people have to bend over backwards to explain all the ridiculous tales while feigning respectability for their "arguments"---what they usually only want to discuss.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 9:57 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 9:59 am by robvalue.)
The bible makes pretty convincing references to the existence of other gods, for which the apologist excuses are entirely pathetic. Some examples:
Genesis, 10 commandment draft, real 10 commandments
He is even happy to be tested against a competing god (Bael). Sadly Bael was AFK at the time so Yahweh won.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 23, 2015 at 10:25 am
(This post was last modified: February 23, 2015 at 10:26 am by Mudhammam.)
(February 23, 2015 at 9:57 am)robvalue Wrote: The bible makes pretty convincing references to the existence of other gods, for which the apologist excuses are entirely pathetic. Some examples:
Genesis, 10 commandment draft, real 10 commandments
He is even happy to be tested against a competing god (Bael). Sadly Bael was AFK at the time so Yahweh won. He also conquered a seven-headed sea dragon! Just like in the other (and much older) Mesopotamian tales! Strangely, I don't often hear any of the theosophers trying to explain the logic of that one.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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