Moral absolutism debates. Ugh.

[RobbyPants]

So, I've gotten myself into yet another debate on moral absolutism. This one is taking the form of asking where inalienable rights come from, and if they even exist. Still, it is playing out exactly the way my last two debates on morality have.

They always go pretty much this way:

Me: I don't believe morality is absolute because I don't see what would cause it.

Them: If morality comes from you, then it is just subject to change. It's just opinions.

Me: Correct, but that doesn't stop people from collectively holding similar opinions.

Them: But if it comes from you, it's just chemicals in your brain. It's all meaningless.

Me: Sort of. We take what meaning we want from it.

Them: Is murder wrong, Rob?

Me: Objectively, no. That being said, that doesn't stop almost everyone from subjectively disagreeing.

Them: But it's just opinions! Is slavery wrong, Rob?

Me: Again, objectively, no. Also, note that it wasn't that long ago that society thought that it was okay.

Them: But then anyone could change their opinion! They could just decide rape is okay!

Me: Yes, but thankfully we seem to be moving away from that.

Them: But it's all just opinions! None of it matters!

Me: We've been over this. It matters as much as each of us wants it to.

Them: Is pedophilia wrong, Rob? What would you think if someone raped your kid?

Me:



But yeah, that's pretty much how they all go. They loop between stating things that I ultimately agree with, and then asking if atrocious things are wrong. So, they'll start stating things that I believe are true, but... that's as far as it goes. Ever. So far as I can tell, they find what I'm saying so ridiculous that they don't feel the need to counter. The best I can guess, they're implying one of two things:

1) They personally find this distasteful and prefer a world with objective morality. Fine, but that's just wishful thinking. Reality doesn't conform to the wishes of individuals.

2) They believe that if morality were subjective that people would be out raping and stealing and killing left and right. I don't know why they believe this, but I'm just guessing it. Who knows? They sure as hell aren't telling me!

What gets more annoying is any time I see that this is happening and start pressing them to further explain themselves... they never do! I don't know if they just don't grasp the topic at hand, find me so stupid that they don't want to waste their time, or if they can tell that they're about to walk into something that would require an actual defensible position. Fucking fuck.

Does anyone else have any similar experiences? Have you gotten them to actually explain their position beyond this?



I think I may have found a theistic topic I hate more than flood apologetics. Yay.

[robvalue]

Oh dear, what utter bullshit.

Here's my counter:

If morality is objective, then no one decided it, not even god. So it's arbitrary, and any correlation with actual wellbeing of humans is coincidental and can only be discovered by experiment. Therefor, it's useless.

If god made morality, it is subjective to god. It's just god's opinion.

[Chad32]

Is murder ok? As long as they aren't christians, and you don't catch them breaking any rules.

Is rape ok? As long as she's an unbetrothed virgin, and you find her out in the field.

Is slavery ok? As long as you're enslaving someone outside your group, or you fofer them a wife first.

Sounds like good biblical morals to me.

[robvalue]

The funny thing is, if there is objective morality, then we can ignore everything in the bible/quran because it's all just god's opinion on morality.

Also, the morality would apply to god. And he fails hard by any standard I've ever heard.

Also... it's pretty easy to set up two situations where the same action is moral in one and immoral in the other. So... objective morality is kind of fucked for anyone with an ounce of honesty or interest in reality.

[dyresand]

Them: You know in your heart god is real.

Me: A heart just pumps blood you dingus 

Them: Where does morality come from 

Me: Certainly not from a god, we just have a sense of what's right and wrong because of evolution.

Them: Do you think someone who killed a ton of people is going to hell.

Me: No and they aren't going to a heaven either were all going the same place.

Them: Do you believe we were created

Me: NO

Them: Did you know Hitler killed in the name of Atheism.

Me: 

[Faith No More]

I think some people just struggle with the idea that rape and murder aren't wrong beyond that most humans have determined it's wrong. It seems to be another case of theists finding reality distasteful, so they come up with a magical explanation.

I personally don't have the mental constitution to handle debates like that very frequently. I find the reality that many people rely on magical explanations distasteful, but at least I won't come up with a magical explanation of my own for that.

[Jenny A]

I would begin by asking absolutists to define murder (or rape for that matter).  Murder is just a name for killings that we as a culture have decided we don't like. What is murder, as opposed to lawful killing, differs widely culturally, and even within a culture people have wildly differing ideas about it.   The Bible isn't so clear about it either.

Raise a few scenarios:

1.  A person enters your house and attempts to kill you.  Is it murder, if you kill him? What if he does not attempt to kill you but was only trying to steal from you? What if he is unarmed? Does it matter if he's stealing from you because his family is starving?

2.  Is it murder to kill a person in order to stop them from raping, or murdering someone else?  Does it matter if you could prevent them without killing them, but only at risk of your own or the victim's life?

3. When a soldier shoots another soldier in a war, is it murder?  What if he shoots a civilian who he only thought was a soldier?  What if he shoots a civilian in order to shoot another soldier?  If he shoots an armed civilian who is shooting at him?  If he drops a bomb that will probably kill some civilians as well as other soldiers?


Point out how different the answers would be under different religions and moral philosophies. 


Then bring out the big guns.  Genocide.

Is genocide ever moral?  Does it matter if god demands that you commit genocide?  It isn't an idle question as god does that a fair amount in Joshua.

[Cato]

Just kick the dolt in the nuts/cunt. When challenged about why you did that just state that their God didn't specifically provide an absolute prohibition of the practice and that if left to your own conscience would not have done it.

[robvalue]

The bible contradicts itself so frequently that it basically reads, "Do what the fuck you want, I got your back." So much for objective.

[thesummerqueen]

Robby, have you ever listened to the podcast Reasonable Doubts? The guys on there often deal with the topics of morality and the psychology behind religion. The podcast is a bit dry to the ear (I like dry humor, so, yay) but it's extremely informative and interesting. Justin Schieber often does debates on just these topics and knows a lot about philosophy. They might be able to help you out in these situations.