Ask a Catholic

[IATIA]

Well what about heaven?  It could work like that. See that was easy to figure out.

Yeah, but thank god we aren't in heaven!

[Ravenshire]

I have already answered this question in the post to which others have objected. Would any one of us fail to stop a rape or a person from getting hit by a bus? No, of course not. We prevent evil or injury whenever we can - sometimes in heroic fashion. (As an aside, perhaps you have not considered that the existence of evil gives us a chance to choose to be heroic or self-sacrificing or to grow in our willingness to serve others.)

However, our circumstances are very different from God's because we are not omnipotent and omniscient as He is. We are not in a position to know that the woman next door is being abused every night or that the child we see at the bus stop is going to school hungry. God can and does see everything, and He is in a position to do something about it.

But how would He do so? Would God simply remove the desire to rape the old woman living alone from the mind of the man who sees her leaving her garden door open? Then where is free will? It is eliminated. Would God allow the man to have the desire but not allow him to take one step in the direction of the house thereby allowing him to freely choose to rape but not allowing him to actually commit the rape? Is this really free will? This strikes me being somewhat akin to taking a child to a candy store and telling her that she can look but not touch. How would any of us feel about living life in that type of straight-jacket? How much resentment would that engender toward God who placed us in such confinement?

Finally, suppose God chose to protect the old woman by simply locking the door for her when she forgot or by sending a snarling dog who took up a post on her steps to dissuade the man from coming closer. These come closer to the types of approach that God would take, IMO.

In my previous post, I said that once God got Himself into the business of preventing one sort of evil or injury, it would be hard to find where to draw the line beyond which He would not be obligated to act since He has the ability to prevent ALL suffering.

The real impact of this, of course, would not be on God but on us, and we might soon find ourselves quite sickened by the Turkish Delight we would gobble down so eagerly at first.

In plain words, "gawds hands are tied." Randy, you have an abysmally low opinion of your omnipotent gawd.

---

Well, I've not actually heard anyone pray, "And Lord, please protect Sister Mary Joseph from being raped as she walks back to her car after bingo tonight", but I suppose God would be open to the suggestion should anyone offer it up.

That is such a disingenuous pile of bullshit. What, Randy? You've never heard anyone say a prayer for the general protection of another? I certainly have. Your gawd fails to protect them at roughly the same rate he leaves every other prayer unanswered. But, yeah, I'm sure it would be "open to the suggestion should anyone offer it up."

[Ravenshire]

When you don't get your way, you deny that God exists because an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful God would be able to prevent pain and suffering. But pain and suffering exist so...

You and your fucking misrepresentations. THE VAST MAJORITY OF ATHEISTS DO NOT SAY "THERE IS NO GOD." Get that through you thick fucking skull.

[Randy Carson]

As a Christian, I'm perfectly at peace (though not always content) with the idea that God prevents some rapes, cures some cancer, and answers some prayers even though I know that this means the converse is also true.

As an atheist, you are NOT at peace with this because you want ALL rape, ALL cancer and (presumably) ALL prayer answered. When you don't get your way, you deny that God exists because an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful God would be able to prevent pain and suffering. But pain and suffering exist so...

My response is simply that WE are not in a position to know whether God has sufficiently good reasons for allowing pain and suffering, so this is not the proof of God's non-existence that so many think that it is. Further, we have no way of judging the "butterfly effect" of any of these actions whereas God does and is more than capable of bringing the maximum amount of good out of any and all situations - no matter how horrific.

However, I have yet to see anyone propose how a world in which all suffering is eliminated without also eliminating our free will would actually function. Merely saying that "God ought to be able to figure it out" eliminates our need to think deeply, and it also overlooks the very real possibility that the way things are IS what God figured out.

No, my being an atheist has nothing to do with me not getting my way with god, I don't believe god exists at all and that is really why he doesn't stop rape and murder. It is pretty twisted that your the one who actually believes this garbage and your the one who is at peace with a god who lets rape and murder take place.

Isn't it interesting that theists are always portrayed as the "twisted" ones? Well, it is an atheist forum, after all...

[Randy Carson]

Did anyone say that rape and murder are good?

... God has sufficiently good reasons for allowing pain and suffering, so this is not the proof of God's non-existence that so many think that it is. Further, we have no way of judging the "butterfly effect" of any of these actions whereas God does and is more than capable of bringing the maximum amount of good out of any and all situations - no matter how horrific.

(my bold)

You should have written (my bad) instead.

In the bold section, I did not say that rape and murder are good in and of themselves. I said that God is able to bring the maximum amount of good out of all situations...even bad ones.

[Mr.wizard]

No, my being an atheist has nothing to do with me not getting my way with god, I don't believe god exists at all and that is really why he doesn't stop rape and murder. It is pretty twisted that your the one who actually believes this garbage and your the one who is at peace with a god who lets rape and murder take place.

Isn't it interesting that theists are always portrayed as the "twisted" ones? Well, it is an atheist forum, after all...

Well your the one worshipping the god who allows murder, rape, and all other kinds of horrific stuff, so take it up with him.

[Randy Carson]

As an atheist, you are NOT at peace with this because you want ALL rape, ALL cancer and (presumably) ALL prayer answered. When you don't get your way, you deny that God exists because an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful God would be able to prevent pain and suffering.

No that's not how it works. Atheists don't deny that God exists due to his perceived inaction. We simply realize that God is a figment of the imagination. It's nothing more than that.

Yes, I know. I was making a rhetorical point.

However, I have yet to see anyone propose how a world in which all suffering is eliminated without also eliminating our free will would actually function.

Well what about heaven?  It could work like that. See that was easy to figure out.

In heaven, everyone freely submits to God's will. Those who did not agree to that have already self-eliminated.

[Randy Carson]

Well what about heaven?  It could work like that. See that was easy to figure out.

Yeah, but thank god we aren't in heaven!  

Perhaps you should stop to consider the absurdity of your statement.

KUSA was proposing a solution to the problems of rape and murder which you routinely accuse me and God of condoning. Yet, heaven, where these things do not exist, is something you do not want.

Why is that?

[Ravenshire]

Yes, I know. I was making a rhetorical point.

Bullshit. You just can't help but misrepresent us.

[loganonekenobi]

2 Chronicles 15:12-13 this one says i should be put to death, 2 John 1:9-11  this one says that you should have nothing to do with me, 1 Corinthians 7:12 this one says divorce is the only option if the wife is an unbeliever,

Once again, I must show you that you are in error because you do not know the Word of God (maybe this is why you're an atheist?):

1 Corinthians
12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

So the question stands.  If this country becomes a catholic nation what would my life as a non believer look like?

Not much different than it does now, I expect.

I think you are trying to goad everyone sir/mame by quibeling on small details. it would seem in this case its only a matter of interpretation.
I can tell you are not taking this seriously. If you were then you would surely understand that my life would not be the same as it is now if this were a catholic nation. it's a common theme in aurguments to try to put the opponent on the defence by distraction on a subject that doesnt matter (such as our difference of interpretaion of a verse, witty word play, or maybe my terrible spelling). As i have said the history of the catholic church is not one of tolerence. I know this wont do any good but if you must see my point of what history says then here it is http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm.
So tell me again that my life would be the same if america became a catholic theocracy. If you are just going to say "oh that's in the past we wouldn't do that again." then it's clear that you are afraid of the answer. as am I.