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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 19, 2015 at 10:26 pm
(June 18, 2015 at 6:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I really don't understand what the hub-bub is all about. I ask people to call me and think of me as Rhythm, or DJ, and they just do, no questions asked. I don't have to establish that I actually -am- Rhythm...or DJ......so why is anyone balking at what Jenner wants to be referred to as or thought of as? It's the simplest thing in the world...to allow a person to self define....we do it all the time. We've got a member here on these boards who is very plainly a woman, spend any amount of time with her and you'll see that she is........doesn't really matter that she was born swinging richard.....and no one gives -her- any shit for it.........
I'm sure I heard about this on the Joe Rogan podcast, and from what I think I remember, the only hub bub about it all was that Jenner was still playing sports and because he now identifies as a woman he plays sports with women, and I think what Joe was saying which I think is quite a good point was that it gave him an unfair advantage, he was taller and faster than most the women he was playing against I think.
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 19, 2015 at 10:32 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2015 at 10:32 pm by Regina.)
Yeah but there's still variety even among cisgender people. I'm 5'4, and as much as I love running I'm never going to be as fast as a 6'4 guy, I just don't have the leg span. By the same token though (and I don't mean this to be funny or shady, it's true) I'm still going to run better than a guy who is overweight or has breathing problems. No two people have the exact same ability in sports, even if they are the same gender.
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 19, 2015 at 10:37 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2015 at 10:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 19, 2015 at 10:26 pm)paulpablo Wrote: (June 18, 2015 at 6:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I really don't understand what the hub-bub is all about. I ask people to call me and think of me as Rhythm, or DJ, and they just do, no questions asked. I don't have to establish that I actually -am- Rhythm...or DJ......so why is anyone balking at what Jenner wants to be referred to as or thought of as? It's the simplest thing in the world...to allow a person to self define....we do it all the time. We've got a member here on these boards who is very plainly a woman, spend any amount of time with her and you'll see that she is........doesn't really matter that she was born swinging richard.....and no one gives -her- any shit for it.........
I'm sure I heard about this on the Joe Rogan podcast, and from what I think I remember, the only hub bub about it all was that Jenner was still playing sports and because he now identifies as a woman he plays sports with women, and I think what Joe was saying which I think is quite a good point was that it gave him an unfair advantage, he was taller and faster than most the women he was playing against I think.
Taller and faster women have an advantage over other women, and it's not like they don't exist. But, ultimately, it's up to those people who choose to engage in and organize the sport, as to whether or not they choose to compete with, or accept into competition, any given person. No one has a -right- to be in a given division, or even a -right- to compete. In a perfect world we'd all have the oppotunity, but this isn;lt a perfect world...and plenty of people don;t get the opportunity regardless of whether or not they're male or female, transgendered, tall, fast, or talented.
Let's flip the script. An F2M post op......do we have qualms about him competing with men? Or are we just slinging -our- "standard model" dicks around pretending to be worried about the poor little girls that Jenner might be competitively brutalizing..."cuz he's a man and whatnot".......?
Maybe, just maybe, is wasn't all that good of an idea to separate competitors from each other based on the status of their dangle in the first place?
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 19, 2015 at 11:01 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2015 at 11:06 pm by bennyboy.)
Rhythm, I'm sorry, man, but you're suggesting turning the entire world of sports, and its history, upside down so the very small percentage of trans-people can compete. This seems like an excessive and pretty much pointless endeavor.
Here's what I want to see: ten differently-abled midgets fighting Rhonda Rousey while that Blade Runner guy installs hydraulic pogo sticks that let him pole vault 20 meters in the air, where he tags a hologram of Greg Louganis, who does a 1440 lateral spin into a bowl of water. Then Jenner pulls out a razor-lined strap-on and double-fucks Tonya Harding in a pool of sharks, to prove that God is real and that bitches like that WILL get what they fucking deserve. And FOX gleefully airs it all while their news channel cries out for the tragic loss of family values.
But until that happens, I'll settle for a world in which people don't pretend that the best women have a non-zero chance to beat the best men in 95% of sports, even if those particular men decide to wear a dress and change their name.
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 19, 2015 at 11:10 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2015 at 11:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, I'm not. The world of sports can do whatever it wants, but lets not pretend there aren't some great girl on guy fights out there that will never happen (or that we've already missed). Ultimately, if they choose to continue with their traditions for the sake of traditions that's their business..literally.....and it's not like I'm going to stop watching. Look, you tell me why two equally matched people can't fight because one has a penis and the other a vagina and I'll change my position...but my position isn't exactly something I'm looking to ensconce into law......so.....
-all this "but the guy is bigger" shit doesn't cut it...one of the guys is -always- bigger than the other one, doesn't stop us from considering them equally matched. As I;ve already said...it isn;t even that much of an issue for me if the difference is huge....and those fights happen too, so what traditions.....other than segregation based upon sex...am I even talking about breaking?
Quote:ten differently-abled midgets fighting Rhonda Rousey while that Blade Runner guy installs hydraulic pogo sticks that let him pole vault 20 meters in the air, where he tags a hologram of Greg Louganis, who does a 1440 lateral spin into a bowl of water. Then Jenner pulls out a razor-lined strap-on and double-fucks Tonya Harding in a pool of sharks, to prove that God is real and that bitches like that WILL get what they fucking deserve. And FOX gleefully airs it all while their news channel cries out for the tragic loss of family values.
-take my money?
(anybody got stats on Cait Jenner, btw...is she running off with all the honors, of late? This is sports..right...we don't have to lean on hypotheticals. If she's not a godamned -win machine- I'm calling massive bullshit on this whole thread)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 20, 2015 at 6:07 am
(June 19, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, I'm not. The world of sports can do whatever it wants, but lets not pretend there aren't some great girl on guy fights out there that will never happen (or that we've already missed). So what? Just because some girls might challenge some men in some sports, and sometimes win, doesn't mean that the whole of women's sport should be imposed on by biological men, just because they decide they feel like women on the inside.
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 20, 2015 at 6:09 am
They don't 'decide' that -_-
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 20, 2015 at 6:13 am
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 6:19 am by bennyboy.)
(June 20, 2015 at 6:09 am)Neimenovic Wrote: They don't 'decide' that -_-
Who cares? However you want to coin the process, allowing biological men to compete in women's sports is unfair to natural-born women.
I do actually agree with Rhythm in that women should be allowed to compete with men in most sports, since there's no real advantage that they have over men. I'm pretty sure that Rhonda Rousey could take out the majority (maybe all?) of men in her weight class in the UFC.
But accepting transwomen into women's sport with open arms would be fucking ridiculous.
--edit--
I may have to change my mind about the sports issue. This is only one article, but it seems compelling enough:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tann...18835.html
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 20, 2015 at 12:29 pm
(This post was last modified: June 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 20, 2015 at 6:07 am)bennyboy Wrote: (June 19, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, I'm not. The world of sports can do whatever it wants, but lets not pretend there aren't some great girl on guy fights out there that will never happen (or that we've already missed). So what? Just because some girls might challenge some men in some sports, and sometimes win, doesn't mean that the whole of women's sport should be imposed on by biological men, just because they decide they feel like women on the inside. I didn't realize that sports was the sort of institution that forced anything on anyone, that forced people to compete with -anyone-. Are either of us talking about sending the slaves into the arena to fight the lions or something? No, we are not. As I've said, these organizations are free to set their rules as they please. If they decide they don't want a person competing, if they decide that a person belongs in a division...that person doesn't get to compete, or, if they do...they get to compete within the division the organization offers them. I simply don't find "she used to be a guy" a compelling reason. Show me, this is sports, show me...that this person doesn't belong in the division....and I don't want to see anyone pointing at dicks or the lack thereof on that count. It's not that I think they have to do this -or else- change their policies.....but I do think they have to do this -or else- shut their fucking mouths about it and just own up to whatever it is motivating their decision. Shit man, if the girls don;t wanna play with the guys and the guys don't wanna play with the girls....that's actually good enough, for me, as far as justification for a decision goes....regardless of whether or not I think they're being ridiculous.
Quote:I'm pretty sure that Rhonda Rousey could take out the majority (maybe all?) of men in her weight class in the UFC.
I'd actually expect her to do noticeably better against men (and women) in a higher weightclass -within reason-, rather than men (and women) in her own weightclass, due to her style - over a long enough sample run (skill obvs being commensurate). The length of the lever is directly proportionate to how much pressure needs be applied to one end to do work on the other -...sure, she wouldn't want to eat an overhand right from someone 20% larger than herself and punching down...but they sure as shit wouldn't want to miss that overhand right and find their arm extended out over Rhonda Rousey, eh? It's sort of a clash of extremes.
Probably wouldn't make for the best fights though, for the fans. Either someone gets clocked out of the blue, or someone gets tapped out of the blue. Every time the one swings their arm it might be the end of the fight either way. Wouldn't expect a whole hell of alot of meaningful back and forth. Who knows though, maybe they'd both dig deep....and Ruosey would be in there close, with 4 inches of clearance planting the bigger opponent on the chin with floor to ceiling uppercuts..... and maybe the poor long armed bastard she's fighting decides to just knee her in the chest over and over and over rather than give her the one thing he knows she wants?
-to bring it back around...
Course, if Rhonda Rousey had to fight "Ron Rousey", 50 lbs heavier than she but otherwise identical in style and skill....I'm betting on Ron, as a general rule. It isn't so much that Ron has a dick, or that he -just- bigger.....it's that he's 50 lbs heavier -and- identical in style and skill. There's a wall, obviously, there are mismatches. I get it. Is it -inherently- a mismatch to put a trans woman in competition with a biological woman? Only the stats could say........and yes, I get that men put up the better numbers, on average......but that's not what we're talking about....do -transwomen- put up the better numbers, on average?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The right to mis-define oneself
June 20, 2015 at 7:42 pm
(June 20, 2015 at 12:29 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Is it -inherently- a mismatch to put a trans woman in competition with a biological woman? Only the stats could say........and yes, I get that men put up the better numbers, on average......but that's not what we're talking about....do -transwomen- put up the better numbers, on average? Well, according to the IOC, it's okay for a transwoman to compete in women's sports because there's no advantage, and they've based it on science. So there's that, which is the reason for my edit.
I suppose the question is where transwomen fit into the male bell curve physically. For example, the tallest athletes are clearly men, and so what about basketball? But it may be that none of the men who become transwomen come from that edge of the bell curve. Maybe 200kg guys are less likely to identify as women.
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