The right to mis-define oneself

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, according to the IOC, it's okay for a transwoman to compete in women's sports because there's no advantage, and they've based it on science.  So there's that, which is the reason for my edit.

I suppose the question is where transwomen fit into the male bell curve physically.  For example, the tallest athletes are clearly men, and so what about basketball?  But it may be that none of the men who become transwomen come from that edge of the bell curve.  Maybe 200kg guys are less likely to identify as women.

Matching opponents is tricky....but, specifically....what about basketball?  Scottie Pippin seems to have set the average way back..lol, 6'8ish, maybe..lol? I'd say a 6'8 transwoman might find it more difficult to get herself into basketball (there would be resistence). She's still shorter than Margo Dydek.

(edit: just looked it up, apparently the average male basketball player is 7foot even, I was off by an inch guesing, 6.7 for a long while. Still shorter than Dydek....so I guess we'd have to be wary of a 7.3 transwoman, as the very floor where there might even be concern. Until some 7.4 chick showed up. : shrugs : )

[bennyboy]

Well, when you take individual members at the extreme end of the bell curve, then it kind of throws everything out the window. There will always be some very tall women, and some very tall men, but taken collectively, there are statistics at work. The question isn't whether one individual does/doesn't have an advantage-- the question is whether transwoman athletes will have a statistical skew as a group that fits outside the bell curve of natural-born women.

I don't know the answer to that question, so for now I'll go with the IOC.

[The Grand Nudger]

Average height in the WNBA is 6 even.  Average height for males (in the us) is @5'9 (most recent data I could find).  So........regardless, we're talking about statistical outliers, eh?  Is the notion that freakishly tall people who have an advantage over non-freakishly tall people shouldn;t be subjected to yet freakishly -taller- people...when those outliers-of-the-outliers can be found and happen to have had gender reassignment?

Seems like we're talking about an -awfully- small hypothetical.

[paulpablo]

-all this "but the guy is bigger" shit doesn't cut it...one of the guys is -always- bigger than the other one, doesn't stop us from considering them equally matched. As I;ve already said...it isn;t even that much of an issue for me if the difference is huge....and those fights happen too, so what traditions.....other than segregation based upon sex...am I even talking about breaking?

They separate guys in weight classes and females and males to give everyone a good chance at winning in their division.  Plus I imagine it makes the sport more exciting since not everyone is fighting for the same title, which would just be champion rather than female champion or light weight champion or heavy weight champion.
I don't think men and women are different only due to one has a penis and the other doesn't, the whole body frame, testosterone levels, bone density and other things that we probably aren't even fully aware of in the brain are different.
But actually, if a female wanted to fight a man I personally wouldn't be against it if the match took place.  I don't think there would be much in it for the man though.  If he wins he gets to be known as the guy who beat up a woman, or if he loses he gets to be known as the guy who got beat by a woman. 
In my opinion it's not just discrimination against people based on if they have a penis or not, I actually don't know who does and doesn't have a penis in sports, I've never seen them naked.  I just assume Brock Lesnar, Mirko Cro Cop, Frank Mir and so on are all men because they're huge beasts with very low body fat and lots of muscle and have the body frames of men.  They could have vaginas for all I know but I just doubt it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Cath up /w Benny and I.  It doesn't matter that men have different testosterone levels or bone density....this "other things we don't even know about" is a non-issue, a non-quantity, so, useless.  It's "the mysterious masculine ability"

Do -transwomen- have higher testosterone and greater bone density?  Answer would seem to be no.

Presumably, any advantage conferred by testosterone or bone density would reflect itself in stats, and so factor into opponent matching. If, that is, opponents are allowed to square off in the first place, and so can generate accurate stats which aren't -inherently- flawed along the predictable lines of penis/vagina.

[paulpablo]

Is it -inherently- a mismatch to put a trans woman in competition with a biological woman?  Only the stats could say........and yes, I get that men put up the better numbers, on average......but that's not what we're talking about....do -transwomen- put up the better numbers, on average?

Well, according to the IOC, it's okay for a transwoman to compete in women's sports because there's no advantage, and they've based it on science.  So there's that, which is the reason for my edit.

I suppose the question is where transwomen fit into the male bell curve physically.  For example, the tallest athletes are clearly men, and so what about basketball?  But it may be that none of the men who become transwomen come from that edge of the bell curve.  Maybe 200kg guys are less likely to identify as women.

I'm still sceptical about transgender women having no advantage, the comments made by the doctors in that article you posted seem pretty vague and the writer of the article seems to have already made up his mind beforehand.  The doctor says things like the transgender woman will probably have the same muscle mass as her counterparts.  To me it seems crazy to sum up all the advantages a man has over a woman in terms of just muscle mass and bone density.  I'm not against transgender women competing against women but I find it hard to believe there's no advantage, just in terms of general skeletal build, hand eye co ordination and so on.

[The Grand Nudger]

All the advatnages a man has?  -All- the advantages a man has..........

-like, what?

I feel like we're being asked to account for the effect of a mysterious substance called Penisium.  Well, if you've got some of that, bring it to the fuckin key and lets take a look? 

[paulpablo]

All the advatnages a man has?  -All- the advantages a man has..........

-like, what?

I feel like we're being asked to account for the effect of a mysterious substance called Penisium.  Well, if you've got some of that, bring it to the fuckin key and lets take a look? 

I'm talking about in sports, in particular the UFC.  The penis and balls are actually a disadvantage in themselves because they're a tender part of the body on the outside that easily get injured. 

There's nothing mysterious about the other advantages a man has. It was in fact documented in the last article about transgender women, the doctor said that bone density and strength are an advantage in fighting, and that once a transgender woman has various hormone changes she will eventually have the same bone density and muscle mass as a woman, after it has decreased from what it used to be when the person had the body of a man, giving them less of an advantage than other men.  You even wrote about this in your last post.

....this "other things we don't even know about" is a non-issue, a non-quantity, so, useless.

So you know the things you don't know about aren't an issue?  How do you know?

Presumably, any advantage conferred by testosterone or bone density would reflect itself in stats

It does, that's why men usually run faster, lift heavier, are taller, and with less body fat.  It's also why boosting the body with steroids and growth hormones isn't allowed in most sports.

[The Grand Nudger]

There's nothing mysterious about the other advantages a man has. It was in fact documented in the last article about transgender women, the doctor said that bone density and strength are an advantage in fighting, and that once a transgender woman has various hormone changes she will eventually have the same bone density and muscle mass as a woman, after it has decreased from what it used to be when the person had the body of a man, giving them less of an advantage than other men.  You even wrote about this in your last post.

Those aren't the mysterious and ineffible effects of penisium referred in the phrase "all the advantages a man has" - you made that comment as you specifically dismissed those two in favor of some invisible mountain of other advantages you are now claiming that I should just simply know about.  Well, I don't...like I said, bring it to the key.  

So you know the things you don't know about aren't an issue?  How do you know?

Because we can't actually opine upon the problems of -x- as an undefined quantity.  If we're offering some justification it's got to be a little more than "because there may be stuff we don't know about".  No shit, but irrelevent, it's the stuff that we -do- know about that we're leaning on to reach conclusions.

It does, that's why men usually run faster, lift heavier, are taller, and with less body fat.  It's also why boosting the body with steroids and growth hormones isn't allowed in most sports.

-and again ignoring that transwomen find themselves in a different scenario.......and granting that all of this is absolutely true, woithout worrying -too much- that "usually" is a giant weaseling cop out in this conversation......then the field would be weighted heavily with males, and those females in a league or in a division would simply be those who belonged there, next to men with similar 10 meter times, similar success with a jumpshot (regardless of their weight, or of the length of their dangles).  The relative amount of males and females and their positions in ranking would differ from sport to sport. What's difficult to understand about this?

(you're not talking to someone who gives a shit about steroid use either, btw. The only thing that bothers me about steroid use, the only reason it;s an unfair advantage, is that it is not allowed, and so only used by "cheaters")

[paulpablo]

Those aren't the mysterious and ineffible effects of penisium referred in the phrase "all the advantages a man has" - you made that comment as you specifically dismissed those two in favor of some invisible mountain of other advantages you are now claiming that I should just simply know about.  Well, I don't...like I said, bring it to the key.  

I don't know what penisium is, I haven't dismissed anything in favour of anything else, and I don't know what bring to the key means either.