Life Is Short; Have an Affair

[Catholic_Lady]

It is wrong for anyone to cheat, but when you are an example of morality, you are held to a higher standard. With great power comes great responsibility, and if you stand for morality or for anything that extends beyond yourself, and then get caught cheating, you're not only guilty of cheating, but of being dishonest, a hypocrite, and disgracing whatever group/principles you stood for. It's a particularly nasty thing.

[Aroura]

I guess I just see them all as average Joe Schmoes.  No myth to be dispelled, no aura to dissipate.  I don't think that they're going to lose followers over it, though, at least nothing significant.  People who believe weird ass shit about their weird ass leaders are unconcerned with trivialities like reality...lol.  It;s really nothing that said leader is doing that creates this scenario, those folks are making their own magic, eh?

Untrue.

The Duggars lost thousands of followers (And their show) from the molestation scandal, and this will probably do them in entirely as people to "look up to" for other religious people.  

So yeah....these things actually do have an impact. 
Being an honest being MATTERS!  I'm baffled that you would argue that is basically affects people not at all.

Lying on this level is terrible, and it ruins relationships (straight, gay, friends, families, all kind of relationships).  To defend it as just something everyone does is baffling.

[Aroura]

It is wrong for anyone to cheat, but when you are an example of morality, you are held to a higher standard. With great power comes great responsibility, and if you stand for morality or for anything that extends beyond yourself, and then get caught cheating, you're not only guilty of cheating, but of being dishonest, a hypocrite, and disgracing whatever group/principles you stood for. It's a particularly nasty thing.

Exactly!

[The Grand Nudger]

Untrue.

The Duggars lost thousands of followers from the molestation scandal, and this will probably do them in as people to "look up to" for other religous people.  

So yeah....these things actually do have an impact!  
Being an honest being MATTERS!  I'm baffled that you would argue that is basically affects people not at all.

Lying on this level is terrible, and it ruins relationships (straight, gay, friends, families, all kind of relationships).  To defend it as just something everyone does is BS.  Though protestith too much, if you know what I mean.

Those people stopped believing what they did, or just transferred their beliefs to the next masthead?  Now, because I'm defending something else, and in the course of that accepting an uncomfortable -fact-.. I'm probably a cheater too huh?

Jesus christ.....

Let me put this very simply, for the simple amongst us.

When, not if, you find yourself on the moral outs, regardless of whether or not there is any validity to that moral condemnation - don't be surprised, offended, or in any way feel that you have -any- purchase on the situation. All comments now levied at these scumbags are -justly- levied at you, not because of the contents of the the specific moral condemnation, but because of your tongue in cheeck approval of -this one-. Goose, meet gander.

[Catholic_Lady]

I would say it might not be fair to condemn the huge Duggar family as a whole for the actions of one person, though. The rest of them could very well be great people who actually do a good job of practicing what they preach.

[Aroura]

Untrue.

The Duggars lost thousands of followers from the molestation scandal, and this will probably do them in as people to "look up to" for other religous people.  

So yeah....these things actually do have an impact!  
Being an honest being MATTERS!  I'm baffled that you would argue that is basically affects people not at all.

Lying on this level is terrible, and it ruins relationships (straight, gay, friends, families, all kind of relationships).  To defend it as just something everyone does is BS.  Though protestith too much, if you know what I mean.

Those people stopped believing what they did, or just transferred their beliefs to the next masthead?  Now, because I'm defending something else, and in the course of that accepting an uncomfortable -fact-.. I'm probably a cheater too huh?

Jesus christ.....

No, I did not mean to impy you are a cheater.  I edited back out after I realized how it sounded.  

Don't you think it planted the seeds of doubt about Christians being more moral in even one persons head?  

There are people on this very forum that were once DEVOUT believers.  They didn't just wake up one day and say, naw, that was all bullshit.  It takes actual things happening to raise doubts and questions.  It often starts with doubting the organization and leaders, and those who represent them.  The Duggars have made some some atheists-in-waiting with their misconduct. It will take time and more input to get them there.  I suspect Hamza will have driven a few people further from Islam as well.


The same goes for politicians.  A hardcore conservative can become more progressive if he loses faith in his political leaders (and vise versa).  My uncle was a very hardcore republican.  He watched Hannity and O'Reily every day (drove my mother nuts...she took care of him in his old age).  But he lost faith in the party line because of Bush and the illegal wars.  Before he died, he disavowed the republican party, and he even voted for Obama's first term.

People are not fixed forever in one state, you know.  Events in the world have an impact.  I still find it wierd that you are basically arguing they do not (that people will just find another wackjob leader to follow, so no impact).

[The Grand Nudger]

No, I don't think that it planted those seeds at all.  They already believe themselves to be fallen creatures.  Thats a full blown crop, currently being harvested. It's not that I don't think events in the real world have impact, I just think that we mis-attribute -constantly-.  Disgraced leaders don't seem to be able to disgrace their platforms quiet as competently as we might hope.  If a person, for example, falls away from islam because of Hamza....I just think (on top of the above) it's a toss up that they'll fall right back in as soon as they find some other talking head to reaffirm what they clearly wish to believe, because what Hamza is or isn't, does or doesn't do, isn't a very good reason to take up or lay down a faith (nor does it seem to be all that effective), it has absolutely -no- bearing on the truth of islam, or the question of allah, and the mechanisms for incorporating that failure into the narrative are already in place and already shown to be very, very effective. Those "would-be" atheists either already were, or actually aren't...and even when they present themselves they are the exception that proves the rule. While I couldn't deny the -possible- utility or effect of this sort of thing, I only remind that there is no free lunch, and manning flak or running smoke for this on those grounds costs something which is more dear to me than the utility or effect it -may- provide, or whatever satisfaction it might bring my heart when I consider love lost and promises betrayed in my own life. I'm running under the assumption that others also value this thing dear to me.

When I lose sight of something, and that happens -often- I count on yall (the collective yall) to help me get past my own hangups. For my part I try to do the same when it seems to me that others hangups are impacting the better angels of their good natures.

[drfuzzy]

No, I don't think that it planted those seeds at all.  They already believe themselves to be fallen creatures.  Thats a full blown crop, currently being harvested.  It's not that I don't think events in the real world have impact, I just think that we mis-attribute -constantly-.  Disgraced leaders don't seem to be able to disgrace their platforms quiet as competently as we might hope.  If a person, for example, falls away from islam because of Hamza....I just think (on top of the above) it's a toss up that they'll fall right back in as soon as they find some other talking head to reaffirm what they clearly wish to believe, because what Hamza is or isn't, does or doesn't do, isn't a very good reason to take up or lay down a faith (nor does it seem to be all that effective), it has absolutely -no- bearing on the truth of islam, or the question of allah, and the mechanisms for incorporating that failure into the narrative are already in place and already shown to be very, very effective.

"If a person, for example, falls away from islam because of Hamza....I just think (on top of the above) it's a toss up that they'll fall right back in as soon as they find some other talking head to reaffirm what they clearly wish to believe."

This is something I found astonishing even when I called myself a Xtian: how many people just jump from following one preacher to the next without even the slightest pause.  We attended a lot of "fringe" churches when I was a child.  5 preachers in a row were caught either having affairs or molesting children.  My parents just found another church, and "isn't the Pastor wonderful?" was the theme - until he wasn't, and they had to find the next one.  I decided, by the age of 13 or 14, that I should never be in a room alone with a preacher!

[Aroura]

No, I don't think that it planted those seeds at all.  They already believe themselves to be fallen creatures.  Thats a full blown crop, currently being harvested.  It's not that I don't think events in the real world have impact, I just think that we mis-attribute -constantly-.  Disgraced leaders don't seem to be able to disgrace their platforms quiet as competently as we might hope.  If a person, for example, falls away from islam because of Hamza....I just think (on top of the above) it's a toss up that they'll fall right back in as soon as they find some other talking head to reaffirm what they clearly wish to believe, because what Hamza is or isn't, does or doesn't do, isn't a very good reason to take up or lay down a faith (nor does it seem to be all that effective), it has absolutely -no- bearing on the truth of islam, or the question of allah, and the mechanisms for incorporating that failure into the narrative are already in place and already shown to be very, very effective.

Were you ever a believer?  

The fact that some priests abuse kids has no bearing on the truth of Catholocism either, and yet it was a thing that caused some people to start to question the church.  Once you put any kind of break in the facade of religion, the cracks can grow.  A person questions the AUTHORITY of what they are being told.  Once you question authority....it can lead anywhere.

I agree it does not change MOST people, but it does change some people, and that totally matters.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, I wasn't.  I don't think that the questioning of the church actually -began- with the abuse scandal.  That was already ongoing, there was already a vast number of "cultural catholics" - to which my family has belonged since time immemorial.  The abuse scandal, from my pov, simply calcified what that number had already determined and gave them the impetus for a break in public whereas the break from faith, in private, had occurred much further back.  That's ignoring that catholics might leave the church but not, as it seems to them, the faith.

-and supposing it does change some people, it doesn't do it the right way. It does it at the expense of something more important than whether or not people believe in fairies. It's that thing, not cheating or cheaters or this cheating website, that I'm defending. That's 100% my opinion of the relative value, and not in any way a fact, but there it is.