Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[robvalue]

Yes, sadly that is a very real possibility too. No matter how nicely CL puts things, she can't change the overall message from the Catholic Church. And it's pretty clear that "God disapproves" of them, not allowing them the same rights to get married and have sex, just because they are (God made them?) gay.

The kid isn't going to be in such a position as me to think "well fuck the church then", because it will have been raised to think the church is actually of great importance, and that God is real.

[Brian37]

How would you feel if your child was gay, and because they felt like an outcast because of the church they committed suicide?  Because a lot of gay teens are committing suicide, and the church is strongly linked as a contributing factor.  When they hear maggots like athrock using words like 'disorder' to describe them, and bastards like Pope Nazi XVI call them a defection of nature, how could it not affect them?  Consider what that does to a person who is raised to believe in this kind and all loving god, who are raised to believe that it's the 100% truth.  Then when they discover they are gay -- and yes, discover.  They do not make a decision to be gay.  When they discover they are gay, they have feelings of shame and they feel they are wrong inside.  When there's not a damn thing wrong with them.

Christian doctrine is simply put outdated.  Going 2000 years without an update, sans the wacky mormons, will tend to do that.  "Gods" perfect laws aren't perfect any more.  They do far more harm than good.  When a book includes stoning people for picking up sticks on Sunday... it's not exactly a book that you should get your morality from.

But she's not that type, that's her excuse.

Kinda like when a mafia underling says "I didn't put out the order, my Godfather did, personally I liked the guy we whacked, but he knew the rules. I'f he hadn't been a rat, he'd still be alive."

[drfuzzy]

How would you feel if your child was gay, and because they felt like an outcast because of the church they committed suicide?  Because a lot of gay teens are committing suicide, and the church is strongly linked as a contributing factor.  When they hear maggots like athrock using words like 'disorder' to describe them, and bastards like Pope Nazi XVI call them a defection of nature, how could it not affect them?  Consider what that does to a person who is raised to believe in this kind and all loving god, who are raised to believe that it's the 100% truth.  Then when they discover they are gay -- and yes, discover.  They do not make a decision to be gay.  When they discover they are gay, they have feelings of shame and they feel they are wrong inside.  When there's not a damn thing wrong with them.

Christian doctrine is simply put outdated.  Going 2000 years without an update, sans the wacky mormons, will tend to do that.  "Gods" perfect laws aren't perfect any more.  They do far more harm than good.  When a book includes stoning people for picking up sticks on Sunday... it's not exactly a book that you should get your morality from.

Oh hell yeah.  Exactly, Divinity.  I think it was around Christmas time 2012 when Pope Benedict Arnold declared all homosexuals "intrinsically disordered" in some Papal missive.  Now, at this time, I was defining myself as atheist. And I was pretty sure this Pope was a sick bastard already - - he had said in some previous drivel that he wrote that only Catholic Christians would go to heaven. Buh-bye, Protestants!  (what an asshole)  And I was 50 and I think I've heard just about every slur and insult possible - some to my face. But I still had to lock myself up by the organ for a few minutes and cry and cuss and grieve for all of the young gay Catholics who just got stabbed through the heart. I know exactly what it feels like to believe that "god hates me".

[robvalue]

I hope you know I'm not trying to criticise you CL or pick holes, I'm genuinely concerned about what would happen in such a very possible scenario.

[downbeatplumb]

I hope you know I'm not trying to criticise you CL or pick holes, I'm genuinely concerned about what would happen in such a very possible scenario.

It could be worse.
The kid could like country and western music (shudder).

[Catholic_Lady]

I hope you know I'm not trying to criticise you CL or pick holes, I'm genuinely concerned about what would happen in such a very possible scenario.

I understand, I respect your views. 

I'm sure my future kids will inevitably do things that I don't think are moral, regardless of whether they are gay or straight. We all do. Every day I do things that I don't think are moral. That's why I keep saying being actively gay doesn't change anything, really.

[Brian37]

@CL: Have you considered that your children may not come out to you at all, or even repress their sexuality, knowing what you will think of them?

If they are gay, I can see them having to choose between the church and their happiness.

Hi Rob. 

No, I haven't considered that. Because I plan on being a good, loving mother... and that will show by how I treat them. I won't raise my children to think that I'll stop loving them if they tell me they have an *involuntary* attraction towards particular type of people, regardless of what that is. Especially since that attraction isn't wrong in and of itself, considering it isn't freely chosen. And I certainly won't raise them to think I'll stop loving them if they do something I don't agree with. It would be like me asking you the same types of questions except if your kids became Christians, you know? I'm sure you would still be an excellent father to your kids and I'm sure you would still love them. 

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "what I think of them?" Like I said yesterday, we are supposed to feel about gay people the same way we feel about everybody else, and that is to love them. A person's sexuality shouldn't identify them or change the way we feel about them.      

Hmm, I don't see why following Church teaching and happiness have to be mutually exclusive. After all, we are commenting on a thread where a gay Catholic man is talking about how happy and fulfilling his life is...

Of course you cant understand. Just like the house slave doesn't understand why the field slaves complain, after all massa treats you real well.

NOW again, this isn't about you, or your rights. This is about the bad logic in that book that leads you to your bad conclusion. You are talking about your own perceptions and interpretations and we are trying to explain to you that perspective is flawed, and not only flawed, but hurtful to gays, even if you perceive yourself as having good intent. This is NOT about you, this is about your bad logic. And you keep insisting on clinging to that  bad logic after you said you had no evidence for your position.

People have posted several verses in that bible that are used to condemn gays, and if I'm not correct, it is your position that homosexuality is a "sin"? You are literally telling people they are broken, and doing that AFTER you admit you could not prove your position. 

My mom is a neat freak, I am not, the difference is although I don't like that obsession about her, I don't treat her like she is broken. You don't have to like everything anyone else does, but that DOES NOT mean they are broken. Calling someone being gay a "sin" isn't just saying "that's not my thing". It is treating them as less of a human being than you.

[Esquilax]

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature and role of confession. This is why I said you do not know Catholicism.

And I appreciate that you then went on to detail your position more fully than this. Now, a conversation is possible.

If a person goes to confession and admits to living with his girlfriend and is unwilling to stop having sex with her, the priest may withhold absolution. Why? Because the person is not committed to CHANGE, to avoiding sin in the future. He is saying, "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. I'll be sinning again later tonight because I'm not will to give up my sin, but I want to be forgiven anyhow."

A few loopholes immediately spring to mind, but those are irrelevant points, really. Instead, I'll ask for further clarification: is it your view that a desire for change is required for salvation, over and above simply accepting Jesus' sacrifice, keeping in mind that said sacrifice was made explicitly because without it there could be no salvation for anyone? In essence, isn't it true that not desiring a change from sin is itself just another sin that Jesus' crucifixion is apt to wipe away before god?

Would any of you forgive your own children whose confession and apology for some transgression was so obviously insincere? Hardly.

I actually might, were I a rational person, knowing full well the context that the rules have been structured such that it's literally impossible for my children not to break them. I mean, I guess I might just not have arranged the rules like that in the first place, but if I was in a situation in which transgressions like that were unavoidable by design, I might at least put some thought into the level of sincerity I should expect.

If being good isn't an option through no fault of their own, in what sense have they even committed any transgression worthy of apologizing for? Am I really being reasonable if I set up the game so that one outcome is impossible, yet I demand apologies for not reaching that outcome anyway?

Similarly, the person who is sexually active in a committed homosexual relationship cannot be forgiven by the Church because there must be the firm intent to avoid the sin in the future. This obviously does not exist within the context of gay marriage or most homosexual relationships. But heterosexuals who are sinning outside of marriage are held to the same standard.

Let's assume, for a moment, that I don't actually care about the church's forgiveness at all. Let's talk about god and his forgiveness, well known as it is for being comprehensive with the addition of the crucifixion. Would god forgive an otherwise devout homosexual couple? If not, why not, considering that his sacrifice as Jesus is sufficient to forgive every other sin?

And if he would, isn't it true that the church is deviating from god's will, in that instance, by denying the forgiveness of god to a person who would actually have the forgiveness of god, were god allowed to speak for himself?

The heterosexual couple can correct this problem by:

1. Living separately and chastely
2. Living jointly and chastely
3. Getting married.

Though of course, their sin state would remain, fixable only by acceptance of a certain sacrifice, yes? So what's the difference, in the long run, that requires such intensive additional demands to be made of homosexuals?

The homosexual couple may choose the first of these two options, but the third is simply not possible because a same-sex couple cannot reproduce. Thus, while the unitive aspect of sexuality might be met, the procreative is not.

Your church allows infertile people to marry. I'm not going to be considering any "procreative" arguments to be anything other than special pleading, given that.

I've heard some of the reasoning as to why the former is allowed, while gay marriage is not, by the way. It still strikes me as special pleading, and I'll get into that if need be, but I'd like to see how much of that you actually subscribe to before I go in depth on that.

[Mister Agenda]

How would you feel if your child was gay, and because they felt like an outcast because of the church they committed suicide?  Because a lot of gay teens are committing suicide, and the church is strongly linked as a contributing factor.  When they hear maggots like athrock using words like 'disorder' to describe them, and bastards like Pope Nazi XVI call them a defection of nature, how could it not affect them?  Consider what that does to a person who is raised to believe in this kind and all loving god, who are raised to believe that it's the 100% truth.  Then when they discover they are gay -- and yes, discover.  They do not make a decision to be gay.  When they discover they are gay, they have feelings of shame and they feel they are wrong inside.  When there's not a damn thing wrong with them.

Christian doctrine is simply put outdated.  Going 2000 years without an update, sans the wacky mormons, will tend to do that.  "Gods" perfect laws aren't perfect any more.  They do far more harm than good.  When a book includes stoning people for picking up sticks on Sunday... it's not exactly a book that you should get your morality from.

Oh hell yeah.  Exactly, Divinity.  I think it was around Christmas time 2012 when Pope Benedict Arnold declared all homosexuals "intrinsically disordered" in some Papal missive.  Now, at this time, I was defining myself as atheist. And I was pretty sure this Pope was a sick bastard already - - he had said in some previous drivel that he wrote that only Catholic Christians would go to heaven. Buh-bye, Protestants!  (what an asshole)  And I was 50 and I think I've heard just about every slur and insult possible - some to my face. But I still had to lock myself up by the organ for a few minutes and cry and cuss and grieve for all of the young gay Catholics who just got stabbed through the heart. I know exactly what it feels like to believe that "god hates me".

I think it's time for a schism. Maybe the 'American Reformed Catholic Church'. Give up the idea that a man speaks for God because he was elected to a particular position. Give up the ban on birth control that most American Catholics don't obey anyway. Insist on transparency to protect children. You can keep being a Catholic without the parts that don't make sense.

Of course, the Episcopalians are right there. Nothing would reform the RCC faster than trying to keep to stop a flood of Catholics from becoming Protestants, even if it's a denomination that looks a lot like Catholicism.

[Mister Agenda]

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that I, personally, would cheat on a partner.  I value honesty and openness - for both myself and a partner - too much to do something behind their back.  If I'm no longer interested/in love with some one, I tell them.  Period.

But, I really don't give a shit about what others do behind closed doors so long as consent is given and no harm is done.  I honestly don't understand this incessant need of some to control others' sexuality.  It's more than a bit bizarre to me.

It would be if "control" were really the issue. The REAL issue is bigger.

If God exists and if he has given us certain instructions about how we should and should not live, then it's reasonable that he might be offended if we ignore those instructions.

Then your first order of business is that there is a God, who issued those instructions, and that your copy of the instructions is the correct one. That's three big IFs to overcome before trying to convince someone that they ought to take your claims about what God wants seriously.