Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe

[WinterHold]

Stop trying to make apologies for your religion. Seriously, this is NOT about you as an individual, this is about the entire concept all three try to sell and all three point to their respective books to justify peace or violence. It isn't personal. I have a problem with all three, but even the religions of Asia and the Orient don't get a pass from me either as far as logic. 

Humans form groups and unfortunately in that process we base those things around our labels and that in turn, even within the same labels, causes divisions. 

Everyone has their concept of justice, Islam doesn't own a patent on it. I can see the affects on religious tribalism and that is not "justice" in the slightest. You do it, Jews do it Christians do it, every religion does it. And that says to me our ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our species, not the labels we hold.

I need to object here, tribalism do indeed exist in Sunni and Shia versions of Islam; I don't do it, in other words I don't care about race and actually think that tribalism and racism are forbidden according to my faith.

I elaborated that in the topic; and gave examples too.

As a person, I'm so mixed already. So I had to find a place that accepts me, nowhere gave me the haven I seek but the Quran, I can indeed bring the evidence from inside the book, I've been doing this for years anyhow..

I was raised by japanese video game programmers, learned about politics through Green Day, took a sexual fetish or two from Marrylin Manson, learned how to live from an Arab called Mohammed, and decided to live pray and die in the shadow of an entity, so alien yet so familiar, God is on of the names, Allah, he's  bigger than anything else.

I'm not making excuses; it's what I believe in.
As for justice, I don't think criminals are served in the modern era, war criminals roam so freely, say hi to the Sauds who roam America like they own it, say hello to Bashar Al Assad who killed half of syria.

Let's try Islam for a change.

robvalue

BTW, in Arabic it's a wonder, the book is admitted by so many people to be a wonderful piece of literary work, Arabic language was defined through the Quran, not the other way around.

Simon Moon

Not going to waste my time reading this thread, but I love the fact that we have Mystic and Atlas debating their BS with each other.


What's the saying?

Two bald men fighting over a comb.

Carry on....

Ah, that's a live show to the scene; currently in Iraq and Syria, Muslims of different sects are using bullets instead of words, saying hi with bombs, I mean imagine it:
(You don't believe in Ahlo Bayt? you demonically possessed waste !!!! boooom)
(You don't believe in Sunna? you evil crooked Mortad !!!! booom).

Indeed, indeed. 

Mystic seems like a decent fella too, so I guess we have to discuss what we don't agree on, I wish if all Muslims did this, maybe blood will stop to spill a little. Extremism ends when people act like this; easily if you don't like a point: criticize, don't hold it inside until you explode, the other side should also have flexibility.

So I do think things are cool, don't bet on me and him blowing each other; we -both- don't seem like it.
Despite my criticism to his methods and clan of ahlu bayt; and him to mine.

Both of us believe in Alllah at the end of the day.

MysticKnight

The verse starts with awakening us to a people who wish to lead astray others. These verse people came down and inherited a false leadership by people who distort God's words from their places and who wanted to be obeyed and listened to while they themselves didn't truly hear and obey the message of the Prophets. 

Where is Ali's name in the Quran again? 
Who's Ali anyways? the guy wasted his nation TBH, because of him, bandits reached the halls of command, and climbed the ranks of ruling anyhow.

Mmmm, again, when something doesn't exist, you can't accuse me of "distorting it"; IT DOESN'T EXIST", Mystic. Bring me a verse from the Quran that tells me to follow Ali. that's the case.

Elections are the way to choose leaders; aside from prophets -who died; all of them BTW-, we don't get to rule but through elections:

Sura 42
( 38 )   And those who have responded to their lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend.

Mmmmm 

Why do shia and sunna faiths are so backward?
If we depended on the Quran, we would've had the essence of civilization since thousands of years..thanks for shia and sunna for ruining the day with their scholars and Hadiths.

Do you not see how a portion are given a portion from the book, they believe in the Jibt (sorcery) and Taghut (that which is falsely worshiped or that which transgresses bounds) and say these are more guided then who believe in a path.

Do they have a share in the authority? So they would not give the people in even a speck in the date stone.

Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham, the book and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority.

Please Mystic..quote the verses with their numbers, so I don't end up with deviated vision, or temporary blindness.
The font is so ugly too. 

Ah.. you're missing a lot verses up there; allow me to quote:

====
Sura 4, page(s) 86. 87
( 46 )   Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
( 47 )   O you who were given the Scripture, believe in what We have sent down [to Muhammad], confirming that which is with you, before We obliterate faces and turn them toward their backs or curse them as We cursed the sabbath-breakers. And ever is the decree of Allah accomplished.
( 48 )   Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.
( 49 )   Have you not seen those who claim themselves to be pure? Rather, Allah purifies whom He wills, and injustice is not done to them, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed].
( 50 )   Look how they invent about Allah untruth, and sufficient is that as a manifest sin.
( 51 )   Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scripture, who believe in superstition and false objects of worship and say about the disbelievers, "These are better guided than the believers as to the way"?
( 52 )   Those are the ones whom Allah has cursed; and he whom Allah curses - never will you find for him a helper.
( 53 )   Or have they a share of dominion? Then [if that were so], they would not give the people [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.
( 54 )   Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

( 55 )   And some among them believed in it, and some among them were averse to it. And sufficient is Hell as a blaze

( 56 )   Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

( 57 )   But those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide forever. For them therein are purified spouses, and We will admit them to deepening shade.

( 58 )   Indeed, Allah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allah instructs you. Indeed, Allah is ever Hearing and Seeing.
( 59 )   O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.
====

Two pages..you actually quoted two pages from the Quran, without numbering them, without telling me about the number of the pages..
And you're using the ugliest font ever. Are you trying to kill me with a brain freeze ?
And, literally not being genuine about your verse copying because it seems like you didn't copy the brutal verses that speak about hellfire..

Again, I don't see your "Ahlo Bayt" in here, I don't see Ali, Fatima, Hussain, Hassan, Mehdi, Iran, nobody.
All i see, is God. Who spoke about ahlo bayt dominion again?

You wouldn't need cutting verses and distort them from their context; have some confidence in ahlo bayt, even though they are all dead ><

Here:

[Mystic]

Salam Atlast

I did forget the verse:

"These who are God has cursed, and who God has cursed you will not for them a helper"

To discuss the translation, you translated as "kingdom". That is a valid translation as far the word goes itself. Indeed words have multiple meanings and often mulk in Quran can only be translated to kingdom.

However, I would say the word "Ulil-Amr" as well as the gist of the discussion, shows the proper translation is "the authority" regarding mulk in these sentences. The reason why amr was not used before, is as you know, amr can be translated as "affair"...so this would probably what is translated just like like mulk is translated into kingdom here. So in this way Amr and mulk become interchangeable and are synonyms and are talking about the same subject here.

Aside from that, is that the people saying "there are more guided then those who believe" who were given a portion of the book were obviously not claiming kingdom. They weren't claiming they had kingdom of Kings in the sense they have an army a palace and dominion of a country under them.

They rather were claiming to be authorities regarding guidance. So the gist of the discussion seems to start with this issue of authority. Do people claiming religious authority or given religious authority by their people have authority? This is the gist of the discussion. So Ulil-Amr is revealed in this context.

But aside from that, if you look at the verse after "Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom and we gave them a great mulk"...it doesn't make sense that mulk here refers to something else then the topic at hand. And this is verified by the words "Ulil-Amr" which verifies the mulkan atheem is about the great authority they were given.

In this sense the gist of the discussion is not saying do they envy worldly kingdom. This is not the issue. What they were envying, was the divine authority given to certain people out of God's grace.

The talk before showed religious scholars of Bani-Israel were such that they wanted to be listened to and obeyed while they themselves would not properly listen to the truth and obey it. They rather were disobedient, and had they listened and said look upon us, ie. rather then you must listen to us and obey us type mentality, it would of been better. But here it's that they had to listen to the Prophets themselves and obey them, then they can be looked upon for guidance, but not given authority in the sense they must be listened to and obeyed.

And the Prophets were rejected due to the false mantle of leadership these people took and now were continuing to take to refute that Mohammad was a Guide and that his successors were bestowed with the authority.

Aside from that, is the emphasis "of them is who believed in it and of them is who turned away from it..." while worldly kingdom is not really something to believe in or disbelieve in regarding God's guidance, but rather is just something that is what it is. But rather it's the divine authority that the family of Abraham was given that, disbelieving in it was such that it merited hell, because it has clear signs and evidence for it, and reward lied in those who believed in it, and hence followed it.

The context of Ulil-Amr is not about government primarily. That his hinted to be part of the reason they were appointed, to govern disputes between people by justice, but that is not the sole reason.

The verses after show the issue of leading the community against oppressors, against their enemies, protecting them against hypocrites, is part of the reason of their authority and leadership.

But the verses before show it definitely is about primarily the authority of guidance, that which people must follow to be guided. That is why it emphasizes on the authority of the family of Abraham.

And to refute that scholars have this authority, we see first it was said it's not for them to say "listen to us" (ie. you must obey us) but rather people can look upon them, and take whatever guidance they can from them, which is totally different then claiming people must obey them.

And then it talks about if these people have a share in the authority, but then people can claim, ok these people have no share, but religious scholars from this nation do. However, you see it then emphasizes that such authority is that which was given to the family of Abraham by God's grace. That such is the true authority, that obedience is linked to God truly through the likes of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob. That Joseph was a true possessor of the authority.

And this fairly obvious to everyone because they were Prophets. Prophets as the verses after show, were all sent to be obeyed by God's permission.

The gist of the discussion then is about divine authority. That is the context of the true authority.

Government by the people is important in absence of these people, but I believe Quran shows that democratic anarchy is the true philosophy of authority in absence of those who possess divine authority.

That we aren't going to say this person has authority over us but rather we are trusting you to implement the will of the people and the organization should be grass roots.

However in the case of those who possess the authority and are given the authority, society has to recognize them and submit.

And Atlas, I don't want to insult you, but I feel to be honest, people who don't acknowledge the verses regarding Auli-Mohammad in Quran, are taking the religion as a play thing.

To them this issue is like intellectual masturbation. They want to argue with the verses of God and his way of guidance, rather then submitting to those he who has linked to his rope, and linked to his path.

It's not a game, religion is not a game to be played with. Any ways, I will see your response to this, but if you don't bring anything new, I will move to other verses about the family of Mohammad like the wage verses.

[Mystic]

I would also say the word "and" is misleading in 4:59, fa either means so or therefore, and are used interchangeably in places. Here is it means "therefore" "so". The "and if you dispute", would of been with a "wa", and for it to be "but" it would be "wa laken", while "fa" means "so/therefore".

[Brian37]

I would also say the word "and" is misleading in 4:59, fa either means so or therefore, and are used interchangeably in places. Here is it means "therefore" "so". The "and if you dispute", would of been with a "wa", and for it to be "but" it would be "wa laken", while "fa" means "so/therefore".

Funny how established scientific formulas can be written in any language and used in a lab universally but religion cant because of the competing interpretations.

Sunnis and Shiites cant agree just like Chinese Buddhists don't agree with Tibet's Buddhists, just like Catholics and Protestants share the same Jesus and God of the bible in Ireland. Just like an Evangelical Baptist voting for Ted has the same god and book as a liberal Baptist voting for Hillary or Bernie. 

Of course you are going to argue interpretation even with other Muslims, because that is the only argument you have, but it is not a form of quality control, it is simply an appeal to emotion because nobody likes being wrong. 

"Interpretation" in religion has no quality control, you can read into any holy book whatever suits your personal desire.

[Mystic]

"Interpretation" in religion has no quality control, you can read into any holy book whatever suits your personal desire.

What you said is obviously true in many respects. But Quran has a solution right from the beginning and that is to have something called 'Taqwa' (guarding).

It begins with a spirit of Suratal Fatiha and ends with two Surahs teaching to seek refuge in God from the evil he has created, the foremost of it being that of dark forces attacking the heart and blowing up the locks and knots on the heart, and creating falsehood in the mind's and hearts of humanity.

If we come to Quran with that spirit of being vigilant and seeking refuge in God depending on him, everything that is unclear begins to unravel and become clear.

This advice is for all of humanity. This is why I take it to remind people of these forces and at least make them take it as a possibility, because, if it's true, then it maybe Quran is something majestic beyond our appreciation and we can only begin to appreciate over time.

This is why I take it to remind about such forces, even though, I know people like to mock me for it.  Just so perhaps people say perhaps things are clear, there are clear proofs of God his Oneness, his Prophets, his Guides, his Leaders he appoints, and that there is a clear religion from him, but the issue is if dark forces are constantly driving our minds and hearts away from the clear proofs and reflecting on them.


That and it has appointed leaders and guides that compliments the Quran, and who point to its proper meaning.

[Brian37]

"Interpretation" in religion has no quality control, you can read into any holy book whatever suits your personal desire.

What you said is obviously true in many respects. But Quran has a solution right from the beginning and that is to have something called 'Taqwa' (guarding).

It begins with a spirit of Suratal Fatiha and ends with two Surahs teaching to seek refuge in God from the evil he has created, the foremost of it being that of dark forces attacking the heart and blowing up the locks and knots on the heart, and creating falsehood in the mind's and hearts of humanity.

If we come to Quran with that spirit of being vigilant and seeking refuge in God depending on him, everything that is unclear begins to unravel and become clear.

This advice is for all of humanity. This is why I take it to remind people of these forces and at least make them take it as a possibility, because, if it's true, then it maybe Quran is something majestic beyond our appreciation and we can only begin to appreciate over time.

This is why I take it to remind about such forces, even though, I know people like to mock me for it.  Just so perhaps people say perhaps things are clear, there are clear proofs of God his Oneness, his Prophets, his Guides, his Leaders he appoints, and that there is a clear religion from him, but the issue is if dark forces are constantly driving our minds and hearts away from the clear proofs and reflecting on them.


That and it has appointed leaders and guides that compliments the Quran, and who point to its proper meaning.

No, the Quran does not have any solutions. It is merely a book someone sold you and you make excuses to cling to. Don't feel bad, I say that about every religion and every holy writing. If your book, or any book or any holy writing even in Buddhism or Hinduism, were a "solution" as you'd like to think, you'd have a patent and a Nobel Prize and your "Solution" would be universally used, like your computer or flu vaccine. 

"Proper" yea that is a loaded word, and I am also sure the other Muslims who would disagree with you also point to their appointed leaders who also think they have the "proper" meaning.

Again, I make the same arguments to even Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists. 

There is no "proper" interpretation of ANY religion. All can be used to justify non violence and violence, empathy and cruelty. There is no such thing as a perfect religion with no divisions, not yours, not any.

The Quran is merely a book someone sold you that you like, it is not universal, not even among your fellow Muslims otherwise you wouldn't be having this argument over "proper" meaning.

[Mystic]

I believe it's the key for the prosperity of humanity. We are treating it unjustly as we are treating the family of Mohammad unjustly.

Until we become sincere to both, with Quran having a great weight and more responsibility geared towards it, then humanity will remain divided and will not realize the mercy meant for them in the divine rule of Imam Mahdi.

[WinterHold]

Salam Atlast

I did forget the verse:

"These who are God has cursed, and who God has cursed you will not for them a helper"

To discuss the translation, you translated as "kingdom". That is a valid translation as far the word goes itself. Indeed words have multiple meanings and often mulk in Quran can only be translated to kingdom.

However, I would say the word "Ulil-Amr" as well as the gist of the discussion, shows the proper translation is "the authority" regarding mulk in these sentences. The reason why amr was not used before, is as you know, amr can be translated as "affair"...so this would probably what is translated just like like mulk is translated into kingdom here. So in this way Amr and mulk become interchangeable and are synonyms and are talking about the same subject here.

Aside from that, is that the people saying "there are more guided then those who believe" who were given a portion of the book were obviously not claiming kingdom. They weren't claiming they had kingdom of Kings in the sense they have an army a palace and dominion of a country under them.

They rather were claiming to be authorities regarding guidance. So the gist of the discussion seems to start with this issue of authority. Do people claiming religious authority or given religious authority by their people have authority? This is the gist of the discussion. So Ulil-Amr is revealed in this context.

But aside from that, if you look at the verse after "Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom and we gave them a great mulk"...it doesn't make sense that mulk here refers to something else then the topic at hand. And this is verified by the words "Ulil-Amr" which verifies the mulkan atheem is about the great authority they were given.

In this sense the gist of the discussion is not saying do they envy worldly kingdom. This is not the issue. What they were envying, was the divine authority given to certain people out of God's grace.

The talk before showed religious scholars of Bani-Israel were such that they wanted to be listened to and obeyed while they themselves would not properly listen to the truth and obey it. They rather were disobedient, and had they listened and said look upon us, ie. rather then you must listen to us and obey us type mentality, it would of been better. But here it's that they had to listen to the Prophets themselves and obey them, then they can be looked upon for guidance, but not given authority in the sense they must be listened to and obeyed.

And the Prophets were rejected due to the false mantle of leadership these people took and now were continuing to take to refute that Mohammad was a Guide and that his successors were bestowed with the authority.

Aside from that, is the emphasis "of them is who believed in it and of them is who turned away from it..." while worldly kingdom is not really something to believe in or disbelieve in regarding God's guidance, but rather is just something that is what it is. But rather it's the divine authority that the family of Abraham was given that, disbelieving in it was such that it merited hell, because it has clear signs and evidence for it, and reward lied in those who believed in it, and hence followed it.

The context of Ulil-Amr is not about government primarily. That his hinted to be part of the reason they were appointed, to govern disputes between people by justice, but that is not the sole reason.

The verses after show the issue of leading the community against oppressors, against their enemies, protecting them against hypocrites, is part of the reason of their authority and leadership.

But the verses before show it definitely is about primarily the authority of guidance, that which people must follow to be guided.  That is why it emphasizes on the authority of the family of Abraham.

And to refute that scholars have this authority, we see first it was said it's not for them to say "listen to us" (ie. you must obey us) but rather people can look upon them, and take whatever guidance they can from them, which is totally different then claiming people must obey them.

And then it talks about if these people have a share in the authority, but then people can claim, ok these people have no share, but religious scholars from this nation do. However, you see it then emphasizes that such authority is that which was given to the family of Abraham by God's grace. That such is the true authority, that obedience is linked to God truly through the likes of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob. That Joseph was a true possessor of the authority.

And this fairly obvious to everyone because they were Prophets. Prophets as the verses after show, were all sent to be obeyed by God's permission.

The gist of the discussion then is about divine authority.  That is the context of the true authority.

Government by the people is important in absence of these people, but I believe Quran shows that democratic anarchy is the true philosophy of authority in absence of those who possess divine authority.

That we aren't going to say this person has authority over us but rather we are trusting you to implement the will of the people and the organization should be grass roots.

However in the case of those who possess the authority and are given the authority, society has to recognize them and submit.

And Atlas, I don't want to insult you, but I feel to be honest, people who don't acknowledge the verses regarding Auli-Mohammad in Quran, are taking the religion as a play thing.

To them this issue is like intellectual masturbation. They want to argue with the verses of God and his way of guidance, rather then submitting to those he who has linked to his rope, and linked to his path.

It's not a game, religion is not a game to be played with. Any ways, I will see your response to this, but if you don't bring anything new, I will move to other verses about the family of Mohammad like the wage verses.

Mystic, the longer your comment gets, the more your point gets lost. You wouldn't need all this explanation if the "point" was so obvious.
Don't get me wrong; gymnastics give your body lots of flexibility, they can also get you into the Olympic games. 

You are still jumping around the main question I asked you : Where the hell is "Ali & the family of Mohammed in these verses"?
You're either joking, playing blind, ignoring my question (which is very insulting if you ask me), or...IDK.

And please don't do these cheap table flipping tactics with me:

It's not a game, religion is not a game to be played with. Any ways, I will see your response to this, but if you don't bring anything new, I will move to other verses about the family of Mohammad like the wage verses.

Please tell this to yourself; I'm actually bored of you dodging the question I've been asking for about...two pages now?

Again Mystic: where the hell is the mention of the family of Mohammed?
Where are the 12 Imam's names, that you order me and the rest of humanity to obey??

Don't expect to get taken seriously when the information you claim DON'T EXIST.
Fine, I can understand an atheist not believing in the Quran, a Muslim not believing in Judaism, a Hindu not believing in Buddhism, but for a person, to try to enforce an information that doesn't exist in the holy book he claims it exists in on all of humanity? Mindblowing, right?

IDK..please don't dodge and waste your time writing gigantic comments, that represent big jumps around questions, in an infinite gymnastic game, that decorated the middle east for 1400 years.

[robvalue]

It's been said before, but... welcome to our world. You're nearly there buddy!

Do we call this a Mohammad-off?

[WinterHold]

It's been said before, but... welcome to our world. You're nearly there buddy!

Do we call this a Mohammad-off?

Frustrating
Lots of things to consider indeed