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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 3:24 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2017 at 3:31 am by WinterHold.)
Quote:I am finding myself in a bit of a maze when trying to "prove" the inaccurate statements in the Quran. You often hear Muslims claim how their book contains scientific knowledge that could not have possibly been discovered in that age, ergo some superior intelligence must have dictated it.
The problem when dealing with this issue often is the constant argument that the translation is simply not good enough. English simply cannot encompass the complexity of the Arabic language. Some words have multiple meanings and therefore a certain verse can mean a lot of things. Added to that, is the ever lasting argument of "you are taking it too literally". That verse does not mean that literally, it is merely a poetic expression to show a truth.
No; use "common sense"; the verses do mean what they say exactly.
For example, this verse:
Sura 16
( 15 ) And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided,
Take it "literally". Mountains increase earth's mass. If they don't exist, earth's mass would decrease. Disturb the mass, and you'll disturb the orbit of the planet.
As for your post; define "before" and "after". Time is irrelevant; scientifically irrelevant unless you specifiy an anchor point like "the big bang" or "the sun".
The initial creation might've been abstract; or even a simple "instruction". Then came the actual execution which took billion of years.
It's very possible. Athiestforums.org exists like this: it's a set of instructions, that get executed to produce what you see.
Just like our universe; written then executed.
"Fate" and "Destiny" and "Meant to Be" mean exactly this.
So.....Which came before; really? earth, sun ?? you're asking the wrong question.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 11:10 am
That's talking that verse literally? 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 11:20 am
(January 24, 2017 at 3:24 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Quote:I am finding myself in a bit of a maze when trying to "prove" the inaccurate statements in the Quran. You often hear Muslims claim how their book contains scientific knowledge that could not have possibly been discovered in that age, ergo some superior intelligence must have dictated it.
The problem when dealing with this issue often is the constant argument that the translation is simply not good enough. English simply cannot encompass the complexity of the Arabic language. Some words have multiple meanings and therefore a certain verse can mean a lot of things. Added to that, is the ever lasting argument of "you are taking it too literally". That verse does not mean that literally, it is merely a poetic expression to show a truth.
No; use "common sense"; the verses do mean what they say exactly.
For example, this verse:
Sura 16
( 15 ) And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided,
Take it "literally". Mountains increase earth's mass. If they don't exist, earth's mass would decrease. Disturb the mass, and you'll disturb the orbit of the planet.
As for your post; define "before" and "after". Time is irrelevant; scientifically irrelevant unless you specifiy an anchor point like "the big bang" or "the sun".
The initial creation might've been abstract; or even a simple "instruction". Then came the actual execution which took billion of years.
It's very possible. Athiestforums.org exists like this: it's a set of instructions, that get executed to produce what you see.
Just like our universe; written then executed.
"Fate" and "Destiny" and "Meant to Be" mean exactly this.
So.....Which came before; really? earth, sun ?? you're asking the wrong question.
Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?
This is a different translation of the same verse and I saw this being used as a miracle in Islamic forums before.
Muslims want to believe it so they tag anything to verses. The mountains are pegs stopping the earth shifting (Which they don't) or the gullible Muslim mind makes up something about the mass of the earth or some other bullshit.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 11:44 am
(January 24, 2017 at 3:24 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Take it "literally". Mountains increase earth's mass. If they don't exist, earth's mass would decrease.
Utter bollocks.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 11:48 am
If you're arguing Islam, your literalism should be comparable to the literalism of the person you're arguing with. It does no good to moan about the Koran's ideas of how the sun sets and rises with someone who has already reconciled themselves to accept modern astronomy despite it. You need to get a feel for how literal they are, so you're not wasting your or their time.
Frankly, if a Muslim cherry-picks and interprets the Koran until they're fine with modernity and LGBTQ people and science; to me there's not much to argue about. I wish there were a lot more of those Muslims. They're still wrong, can't know that the Koran is true, and have no convincing evidence that their deity is real; but I have much bigger fish to fry than bare-bones Muslims.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 12:07 pm
(January 24, 2017 at 3:24 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Take it "literally". Mountains increase earth's mass. If they don't exist, earth's mass would decrease. Disturb the mass, and you'll disturb the orbit of the planet.
Wait!
Did you really say this?!
Mountains increase Earth's mass?!!?!!?!!!!
Do you accept that the Earth is a planet, roughly shaped like a sphere, travelling through the vacuum of space?
Where does mass come from to increase Earth's? (Meteors are all I can see)
Barring the occasional rocket and probe that humans send out, how does mass leave the Earth?
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 1:41 pm
(January 24, 2017 at 3:24 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Quote:I am finding myself in a bit of a maze when trying to "prove" the inaccurate statements in the Quran. You often hear Muslims claim how their book contains scientific knowledge that could not have possibly been discovered in that age, ergo some superior intelligence must have dictated it.
The problem when dealing with this issue often is the constant argument that the translation is simply not good enough. English simply cannot encompass the complexity of the Arabic language. Some words have multiple meanings and therefore a certain verse can mean a lot of things. Added to that, is the ever lasting argument of "you are taking it too literally". That verse does not mean that literally, it is merely a poetic expression to show a truth.
No; use "common sense"; the verses do mean what they say exactly.
For example, this verse:
Sura 16
( 15 ) And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided,
Take it "literally". Mountains increase earth's mass. If they don't exist, earth's mass would decrease. Disturb the mass, and you'll disturb the orbit of the planet.
That's all well and good, except for one inconvenient fact. The sum of the earth's mass contained within the crust, of which mountains make up a small part, adds up to 0.5% of the whole. So mountain mass does pretty much zip for maintaining earth's orbit or atmosphere.
Of course that is all assuming that your personal interpretation is what the writers of the qu'ran meant, which it is not, and that the qu'ran is also the received word of god, which it is also not. The qu'ran is simply the most recent interpretation of a bunch of creation mythologies first told in the first cities emerging out of the Fertile Crescent, and is as ignorant of reality as the earlier mythologies.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 2:02 pm
(January 24, 2017 at 3:24 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Quote:No; use "common sense"; the verses do mean what they say exactly.
For example, this verse:
Sura 16
( 15 ) And He has cast into the earth firmly set mountains, lest it shift with you, and [made] rivers and roads, that you may be guided,
Take it "literally". Mountains increase earth's mass. If they don't exist, earth's mass would decrease. Disturb the mass, and you'll disturb the orbit of the planet.
As for your post; define "before" and "after". Time is irrelevant; scientifically irrelevant unless you specifiy an anchor point like "the big bang" or "the sun".
The initial creation might've been abstract; or even a simple "instruction". Then came the actual execution which took billion of years.
It's very possible. Athiestforums.org exists like this: it's a set of instructions, that get executed to produce what you see.
Just like our universe; written then executed.
"Fate" and "Destiny" and "Meant to Be" mean exactly this.
So.....Which came before; really? earth, sun ?? you're asking the wrong question.
Do you feel the same about these verses? Do these "mean what they say exactly"?
“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” Quran 8:12
“Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away. They have not the power so to do. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy…” Quran 8:59-60
“When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5
“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123
“Lord…Give us victory over the unbelievers.” Quran 2:286
“Lord…give us victory over the unbelievers.” Quran 3:147
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 5:22 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2017 at 5:23 pm by WinterHold.)
(January 24, 2017 at 11:10 am)Khemikal Wrote: That's talking that verse literally?
Yes; to the max!
Paulablo
Quote:This is a different translation of the same verse and I saw this being used as a miracle in Islamic forums before.
No; it's not the same verse.
This is verse 7 in Sura 78.
Quote:Muslims want to believe it so they tag anything to verses. The mountains are pegs stopping the earth shifting (Which they don't) or the gullible Muslim mind makes up something about the mass of the earth or some other bullshit.
Not really; the verse does save me lots of time and make me conclude (literally) that:
1-Earth can shift (Thus it is standing over some kind of space).
2-Anchors or pegs make it stable; or in other modern words mass make it stable; so its mass does play a huge role in making it stable.
Quote: As a whole, 24% of the Earth's land mass is mountainous.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain
That's a lot of mass.
Having 24% of additional mass to the land is what makes the gravity of earth what it is right now.
Increase or decreas, and you'll cause a disaster.
https://www.quora.com/What-would-happen-...nificantly
Mister Agenda
Quote:If you're arguing Islam, your literalism should be comparable to the literalism of the person you're arguing with. It does no good to moan about the Koran's ideas of how the sun sets and rises with someone who has already reconciled themselves to accept modern astronomy despite it. You need to get a feel for how literal they are, so you're not wasting your or their time.
The disaster is when the Muslim debater is as literal -or even more- towards science,as their discussion peer.
As for time wasting; I don't believe that these discussions are time wasting because I don't actually want to convert you.
Not by words, or by guns, or by knives, or by anything. You assumed that I'm a missionary who has a goal of converting the people I discuss things with.
Standing up between the masses and saying your belief and discussing it, is not time wasting.
It lets people crack the stinky shells they surround themselves with, it makes people discover new stuff, or change negative ideas. Increases self-esteem; too.
The people who "didn't waste their time" in discussing their ideas and faiths, ended up isolated and actually went extinct.
About science, I'm so very literal. Or else; g++ would throw a syntax error.
Quote:Frankly, if a Muslim cherry-picks and interprets the Koran until they're fine with modernity and LGBTQ people and science; to me there's not much to argue about. I wish there were a lot more of those Muslims. They're still wrong, can't know that the Koran is true, and have no convincing evidence that their deity is real; but I have much bigger fish to fry than bare-bones Muslims.
I wouldn't call it "cherry picking until its fine with modernity, LGBTQ society and science".
Instead; as a bisexual, I suffer daily to hold my desire; but you'll never hear me "cherry pick" or go in gigantic gymnastic jumps to make the story of Lot peace be upon him sound "differently".
For modernity; speaking the language of my age, styling my hair in the styles of my age, eating the food of my age, listening to the songs of my age, do not mean that I'm "cherry picking" to make the Quran suit my life; but actually living my age while inflicting the faith on it.
I don't eat pork. That's a single example.
For science; science has no owner. There is a hell big load of Muslim scientists who believed in the Quran but also added wonders to science. It's not "cherry picking"; it's a simple notice.
Pocaracas
Quote:Wait!
Did you really say this?!
Mountains increase Earth's mass?!!?!!?!!!!
Yes! they're even a part of that mass
Quote:As a whole, 24% of the Earth's land mass is mountainous.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain
Quote:Do you accept that the Earth is a planet, roughly shaped like a sphere, travelling through the vacuum of space?
Yes.
Quote:Where does mass come from to increase Earth's? (Meteors are all I can see)
Barring the occasional rocket and probe that humans send out, how does mass leave the Earth?
Anything; even dust from outer space.
Tazzycorn
Quote:That's all well and good, except for one inconvenient fact. The sum of the earth's mass contained within the crust, of which mountains make up a small part, adds up to 0.5% of the whole. So mountain mass does pretty much zip for maintaining earth's orbit or atmosphere.
I don't think things would be same; even 0.5% is enough to disturb everything. I can't find a scientific study to support my claim though; neither can I find a suitable execution of the law of gravity. But I'm sure that changing cosmic constants can result in disasters.
Quote:Of course that is all assuming that your personal interpretation is what the writers of the qu'ran meant, which it is not, and that the qu'ran is also the received word of god, which it is also not. The qu'ran is simply the most recent interpretation of a bunch of creation mythologies first told in the first cities emerging out of the Fertile Crescent, and is as ignorant of reality as the earlier mythologies.
I take the author seriously; and nothing denied what he said until now. Ancient tales talked about a Zues and an Apollo; the Quran told a very different case.
Simon Moon
Quote:“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” Quran 8:12
It was a battle; this was a fighting verse; just like when a captain of a squad in a secular army says "aim for the heads; take no prisoners!!".
Quote:[b]“Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away. They have not the power so to do. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy…” Quran 8:59-60[/b]
All non-believers arrange military parades ans develop new weapons to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies.
Muslims are allowed to do the same.
Quote:[b]“When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5[/b]
The war between the prophet and the pagans stopped in certain sacred months; this was the order Muslims got to continue the war. The pagans did the same; and they started that war.
Quote:“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73
Barbarian pagans who kill women, children and torture men; just for believing in an other faith.
Quote:“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123
Because all of them fought Muslims already.
Quote:“Lord…Give us victory over the unbelievers.” Quran 2:286
Yes; many of them hurt us.
Quote:“Lord…give us victory over the unbelievers.” Quran 3:147
Yes. Many of them torture us.
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RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
January 24, 2017 at 5:43 pm
(January 24, 2017 at 5:22 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Pocaracas
Quote:Wait!
Did you really say this?!
Mountains increase Earth's mass?!!?!!?!!!!
Yes! they're even a part of that mass
I can't even articulate it...
WHATTTT?!??!!
"Yes" what?!
Mountains do not increase Earth's mass.
Mountains are formed from matter already within the Earth, so the mass doesn't increase when magma solidifies and becomes a volcano, nor when two tectonic plates push against each other to form a mountain range (like the Himalayas).
No increase in mass!
(January 24, 2017 at 5:22 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Quote:As a whole, 24% of the Earth's land mass is mountainous.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain
Do you understand that the term "land mass" here is opposed to water covered land?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land#Land_mass
"The Earth's total land mass is 148,939,063.133 km2 (57,505,693.767 sq mi) which is about 29.2% of its total surface. Water covers approximately 70.8% of the Earth's surface, mostly in the form of oceans and ice formations."
Do not conflate different concepts that, for some historical reason, share the same word!
Haven't met a single believer who wasn't guilty of this!
(January 24, 2017 at 5:22 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Quote:Where does mass come from to increase Earth's? (Meteors are all I can see)
Barring the occasional rocket and probe that humans send out, how does mass leave the Earth?
Anything; even dust from outer space.
Dust and meteors from space not a mountain make.
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