A few points of conflict with Jackie L's (Eilonnwy) article.

[tavarish]

I've been having a discussion on Facebook with a member here, Eilonnwy. It has turned into a somewhat hostile argument, and for the sake of establishing a reasonable conversation, I'll reference it here. I'll keep it at concise as possible.

Here's the article she wrote:

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-bosto...fd5bab%2C0

I'm not sure if she wrote it in an inflammatory or condescending tone, but it certainly seems like that to me.

The exchange I had, found here ended with this series of comments from her, which I'll respond to one at a time, her comments are underlined and italic.

Your post exhibits exactly what I'm talking about, but you won't see it.

Please show me how I exhibit white male privilege in my text. You have been entirely unclear on this issue.

You missed all my acknowledgements that it's not a singular problem, it's not all atheists, it's simply an attitude displayed by people in a certain demographic group ...that is the majority of the atheist community.

The title of the article is " White Male Atheists: Why you need to check your privilege at the door". You haven't demonstrated that the sentiments you so harshly oppose is apparent in the majority of the white male atheist community.

Instead you take it as an attack on white men, and forget that I'm white too and have personally checked my own privilege.

You basically referred to white men as not acknowledging their privileges in society - and that being a reason of why the atheist community isn't more diverse, yet you don't demonstrate this to actually be the case. All you provide is some anecdotes from people you don't agree with and generalize that it's necessarily the case for the majority of the community.

You have no intention of understanding what it's like to be an oppressed minority, I'm not going to educate you.

It's great that you assume what my understanding and experience is, all with that condescending tone that you try to justify by saying you're educating people. Get off your high horse, stop assuming things about other people, and stop trying to force your ideology onto others without actually demonstrating their premises to be true in a consistent manner. Emotional rants aren't needed.

Do it yourself. I gave you links to the checklists, links to examples of the problem with the Bill Maher post and the comment replies to the Hutchinson article. It's right there. Look.

Which I did the first time I read your article. Do I need to explain to you how your experiences aren't necessarily representative of the majority? The checklists you posted are great opinion pieces, but they don't necessarily reflect fact, and many points that they make are irrelevant, inaccurate tirades which can be thoroughly disproven by taking other factors into account.

Also, I wasn't lying when I said fuck off if you going to start the victim blaming shit.

And I told you that conflating victim blaming with risk assessment is ridiculous - but it definitely ties into the emotional tone you've been using all along. Shutting your ears to those who have a different ideology must work really well to convince others of your position.


Oh and because it bugged me:

"One of the items on the checklist was that it's a privilege not to have a monthly menstrual cycle. Seriously?"

Yes, seriously, you ignorant fuck. You have no idea what it's like to suffer through a menstural cycl...e. For 3 days out of every month I am physically ill. The cramps have gotten so bad I've had to call out of work. The mood swings have caused really bad fights with people I care about. I had to have surgery because my ovary got a cyst on it, a direct result of the menstrual cycle.

And now the tone has changed.

Yes, it's true I don't know what a menstrual cycle feels like. However I don't need to feel guilty for being born a man. Life isn't fucking fair. Lots of people have bad things happen to them. The difference between most women and your frame of mind is that you feel entitled to pity because you're subject to something that all functionally operating women have to deal with. Do I go around talking about how others should feel guilty that they have more fruitful and successful lives, claiming privilege, or do I simply take people's actions and words for the merit they possess, without taking race, gender, or sexual orientation privilege into it?

You're not the first fucking person to have unfavorable elements in their life, and it speaks volumes that you would generalize an entire population when you yourself don't know what it's like to be a white male - yet you have the audacity to condemn others for doing the exact same thing. You say that there are disadvantages, but don't go into any detail about what they are. Perhaps it's because that doesn't comport with your agenda, so it's irrelevant for you to acknowledge that privilege is a double edged sword. Nor do you explain how it is at all significant when addressing the issue of diversity in the atheist community. You pose an argument on the grounds of your experience, write it as if it were fact that represents the majority and you're educating people about it, then tell others to fuck off if they challenge your position because they don't know what it's like to be you.


Women's periods are not a walk in the park. They are painful and can interfere with your life to the point of ruining it. I know someone who wasn't able to say goodbye to their classmates at graduation because they got their period and had to leave. And to fix it we have to take pills or treatments that can alter our personality or make one aspect of our period worse? How is this in anyway not a disadvantage?

Do you want me to feel pity or guilt? There are many painful aspects of life, and some have it easier than others. When unfavorable things happen, it's best to deal with them and not dwell on them or use them as a crutch to get guilt out of people that don't know what it's like to feel your particular ailment. Sometimes life sucks. It's how we deal with it that defines our character.


Your unwillingness to even grant that a period is a disadvantage shows you have no interest in understanding privilege and are just butthurt because you're being called out on it.

So you're over here implying white males with this mindset are butthurt, while you do your best to illustrate a woman's disadvantage - and don't address those that interest a white male? How is that at all an open minded conversation? I applaud your effort in saying that every ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation has its disadvantages, but you seem to dwell on the ones that apply to you, and magnify them to the point where you feel entitled to lay guilt on to those who aren't you.

Butthurt? Not at all.

If you want biographical information about my hardships to put it into perspective, I am not a white male. My father is Dominican and my mother is Russian. We had to leave the Soviet Union shortly after I was born because the racism in the community was so great that we received death threats, not to mention my father had to be on guard with a weapon for anyone that wanted to harm us. When I came to America, we lived in the projects - an overwhelmingly black community. We had literally nothing but the clothes on our backs when we came to this country. Throughout my life, I've experienced racism firsthand on many occasions, and I have quite an intimate understanding of how some poor ethnic communities operate and how their value system is composed. I went to an inner city high school where I would be under constant fear or a gang shooting and have seen a few people beaten to death in front of my eyes. If you want to think of disadvantages, this isn't even scratching the surface.

I understand I'm lucky in some aspects, as there are many others that have it worse, but at no point do I look back at my life, look at society, and make others feel guilty for not being me. I honestly don't care if others acknowledge their luck in life in contrast to mine - it's a moot point because it doesn't give us any insight into this matter, it just puts us on unequal ground relative to one another.

Using shit like that as a crutch does nothing to help your cause. Life isn't fair. Fucking deal with it or stop complaining that others' privilege are somehow impeding on your interests. It's tough sometimes, but find solace in the fact that you're not the first or last woman to have period cramps or ailments.

My rant to you has been a bit emotional, but it was a response in the same sentiments you presented, which I hope you'll appreciate. An ideology in which you expect everyone to change is not only unrealistic, it's very condescending and closed-minded.

In order for you to have a healthy discussion on the topics, which actually can be pressing issues in a society, you must cater to the reader's ideals if you're trying to convince them of your point of view.

[fr0d0]

As usual on this subject I find your stance repulsive Tav. You're the oppressive king complaining to the slave that they're not considering your feelings. You need to check your stance and try to approach it in a fair manner. Nothing will come of your bullying tactics other than reproducing the discrimination you are being asked to reign in.

[Dotard]

The article is just more of Eilo's misandrist bullshit.

To argue with her about it is like argueing with a theist about their religion. They just want to believe it to be real in order to come to terms with their lot in life. In order to shift blame to another for "holding them down". A man with much greater power, prestige, whatever must have gotten what he has by some perceived priviledges granted by (or forced from) society.

Yeah, Eilo, white men are rulerz of the universe if that makes you feel better about yourself.

[downbeatplumb]

Have you tried living with a woman going through her PMT Phase.
And Eli you says us men dont suffer!!!

[A Theist]

When discussions deteriorate into angry verbal assaults and name calling, it's no longer a discussion. Time to back out of it, and leave it alone. There's no longer a point to be made.

[tavarish]

As usual on this subject I find your stance repulsive Tav. You're the oppressive king complaining to the slave that they're not considering your feelings. You need to check your stance and try to approach it in a fair manner. Nothing will come of your bullying tactics other than reproducing the discrimination you are being asked to reign in.

And how and where am I oppressing anyone?

[fr0d0]

And how and where am I oppressing anyone?

That you don't know it illustrates the point. Have you any clue how you might be?

[Edwardo Piet]

fr0d0 is so very eloquent.

[tavarish]

And how and where am I oppressing anyone?

That you don't know it illustrates the point. Have you any clue how you might be?

I guess I'm asking you how I'm being oppressive for the sole purpose of reading my own text.

...


I'm asking you because it's an unanswered question. Please explain what you mean.

Thanks.

[Autumnlicious]

The article is just more of Eilo's misandrist bullshit.

To argue with her about it is like argueing with a theist about their religion. They just want to believe it to be real in order to come to terms with their lot in life. In order to shift blame to another for "holding them down". A man with much greater power, prestige, whatever must have gotten what he has by some perceived priviledges granted by (or forced from) society.

Much like arguing with a theist fundamentalist, there are some things that certain individuals will not back down on. Despite evidence or lack thereof.

I am not ashamed for who am I. I don't have white guilt, and will never have it. Anyone who tries to push that onto me will only get contempt.

Yay white male atheist privileges! Instead of being burned at the stake, we can be beheaded. It's oh-so-much better.

---

As usual on this subject I find your stance repulsive Tav. You're the oppressive king complaining to the slave that they're not considering your feelings. You need to check your stance and try to approach it in a fair manner. Nothing will come of your bullying tactics other than reproducing the discrimination you are being asked to reign in.

Bullshit. Asking for facts when anyone is posting subjective garbage as their evidence is fair game.

Think about someone writing that "Obama-care is Nazi Eugenics", linking to conservative blogs (opinion pieces). Asking them for what evidence leads them to that conclusion is not just a courtesy, but required.